What If Judas Iscariot is made/canonized as a holy saint in Christianity, especially by catholicism and/or other denominations?

[Infamous_42]

This question, idea and concept has been bugging me for a long while now ever since I've read this amazing graphic novel and it's different perspective/take of christian theology/story and lore.

Judas (comic book) - Wikipedia

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This comic book mini series is in the same league of great works of our time that questions and gives contemplated introspection long after reading it, especially if you're a believer/devote follower of christianity (sidenote/disclaimer, I'm agnostic, raised in a christian household). Works like dante's inferno/divine comedy, john milton's paradise lost (haven't read these except in wikipedia) and martin's scorsese great movie adaptations on the novels, the last temptation of christ and silence (better these than mel gibson's the passion of the christ, which is a great spectacle but ultimately short of substance, unless you're a hard-core devote christian both good and "bad").


So my somewhat rambled paragraph summary out of the way, my question is this, what if the events of the comic is the definitive fate of the great traitor/disciple and is confirmed by Jesus himself and wanted to give his greatest and ultimate disciple his "perspective" for his gospel like the supposedly gospel of judas iscariot irl.

Gospel of Judas - Wikipedia

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And how would the early christianity formed with this revelation, the council of nicea and their deliberations like making this a Canon in their theology, state this as heresy, or even founded a christian denominations revolving with this revelation ala orthodox, gnostics, coptics and protestants and their future "derivative" (a flawed creator god, predestination, lucifer's reason for his rebellion, Christ's singular sin and absorbing all of mankind's sins in exchange for his divinity, for his fall in hell and judas predestined/ molding him to "saving" jesus at a cost of him staying behind in hell to become the patron saint of the damned).

How would Judaism and Islamic faith deal/react this in the early days of christianity with this particular revelation.?



Or a different line of perspective of this question, what if this story is written by in the same era somewhat when Dante Alighieri and later on John Milton wrote their works or even a great writer like Thomas Aquinas have read this work in his life?

What effects does the comic series if it's been written as a novel and in those times, what discourse, theological, philosophical and cultural impact would this work give to the western world, especially christianity in those times, from protestantism, existentialism, enlightenment and even nihilism and its various forms...

 

[Mildtryth]

There's no way that would happen unless Gnosticism - or better, the specific Gnostic sect that wrote that gospel - became mainstream.

 

[Infamous_42]

There's no way that would happen unless Gnosticism - or better, the specific Gnostic sect that wrote that gospel - became mainstream.

Oh OK, so what about the other question where it's a work of fiction in the vein of paradise lost and the divine comedy and was written in those eras those works were written...

 

[Evil Crusader]

I think this is the question that really appeals more to friendly agnostics than it does believers (as you put it, because of "substance"). Let us unpack, taking the proposed change as true:
- early Judaism mostly doesn't care; their main objection has always been one of different interpretation of what the Messiah is, however;
- early Christianity would likely not develop the concept of the Trinity, with Jesus falling more into an exceptional, but still not divine, role (God as defined in Judaism/Christianity cannot sin), making the distance from Judaism smaller;
- this Saint Judas would be a powerful asset to any splinter group, and likely make secret conversions allowed (which may well butterfly away the intransigent African theologian school, and with it, St. Augustine of Hippo);
- if (big if) Islam still rises, this narrative is practically perfect to segue in the special role of the Prophet, who was given a most loathable role for the better understanding of God's Plan;
- if it's just fiction, it has to be written later on, when (like in our timeline) claiming that Jesus has sinned does not make you into a social pariah.

 

[Infamous_42]

I think this is the question that really appeals more to friendly agnostics than it does believers (as you put it, because of "substance"). Let us unpack, taking the proposed change as true:
- early Judaism mostly doesn't care; their main objection has always been one of different interpretation of what the Messiah is, however;
- early Christianity would likely not develop the concept of the Trinity, with Jesus falling more into an exceptional, but still not divine, role (God as defined in Judaism/Christianity cannot sin), making the distance from Judaism smaller;
- this Saint Judas would be a powerful asset to any splinter group, and likely make secret conversions allowed (which may well butterfly away the intransigent African theologian school, and with it, St. Augustine of Hippo);
- if (big if) Islam still rises, this narrative is practically perfect to segue in the special role of the Prophet, who was given a most loathable role for the better understanding of God's Plan;
- if it's just fiction, it has to be written later on, when (like in our timeline) claiming that Jesus has sinned does not make you into a social pariah.

Nice and great but let me articulate in the comic and Jesus's singular "sin" since I've read the comic and hopefully you too would get what I meant about that, Jesus in the comic fell into hell when he thought he would go to heaven after his crucifixion, because he didn't told judas of his predestined role to "betray" him and he knew it and kept his mouth shut because of the adage "it's all my father's great plan" and the variation of "this has to happen/canon event".

So when judas learns that he didn't betray jesus and it was the other way around, he lashes out and that same moment because of that Jesus absorbs all of mankind's sins, past present and future, and he was dragged in the deepest pits/layer of hell with the 4 beasts from the book of revelations guarding the place and they wouldn't want to go in, all demons wouldn't go in especially lucifer himself and judas learns and saw Jesus crucified again, this time in hell and the cross is made of monstrous tree/woodlike and tentacled cross with Jesus being able to see the future/ our history down to the modern day seeing the savagery, brutality and atrocities committed in his name by his followers of the christian faith (the inquisition, the Jewish pogroms, the crusades and scandals of christianity itself, especially the catholic church).

with that in mind Jesus lost all hope as that layer he was crucified in is the death of hope itself and judas realized his predestined purpose in being in hell when that moment reminds him the story of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac because God said so, when what we all usually understood that God is testing Abraham of his faith and devotion to him, but judas realizing that God is not testing Abraham but himself if he could do it to sacrifice his only son in hell where even lucifer and god himself would not go, with judas dawning on him with this revelation he reminds Jesus of never losing hope with his word going back to him, "come, follow me".

Granted that was a small spoiler but I'm glad I can get to talk about this somewhat in detail and discuss the PoD of this story if this was part of the theological discussions of freewill/predestination, the flawed creator concept, philosophical ideas coming from this comic and more, as a part of actual lore of Christianity itself or as a product of the enlightenment like john milton and dante alighieri's novels.

If you're not convinced,I highly recommended the comic to read, this is in the same vein to the movies like the last temptation of christ, silence and exodus gods and kings...

P.S edit, I realized that I glossed over the lucifer sections of the comic and his reasons for his rebellion with his fellow angels (like the lucifer series) and the other figures from the Bible, from goliath, ramses, jezebel and especially lot's wife.

Her portion in the comic dedicated to her is hauntingly disturbing to me in the reasons why she was "punished" by god and the comic offered a compelling argument to that, especially for lucifer...

I can't stress this enough to recommend this comic (I'm almost sounding like a proselytizing missionary or a fanboy hehehe) its just that good, and it's from the same studios that published the tmnt comics and transformers.

So it was good...

 

[Evil Crusader]

Granted that was a small spoiler but I'm glad I can get to talk about this somewhat in detail and discuss the PoD of this story if if this was part of the theological discussions of freewill/predestination, the flawed creator concept, philosophical ideas coming from this comic and more, as a part of actual lore of Christianity itself or as a product of the enlightenment like john milton and dante alighieri's novels.

The problem is, you're putting the cart before the horse. The "flawed creator" concept's main raison d'être is as an exploration of or reaction to the idea of a perfect creator, more specifically the Christian one. If it's not expressed, as I put it, very early on through Ebionist theology, it becomes harder to incorporate it through Christian theology and likely alien to Islam.
I suppose there's the chance a genuinely apostolical Gospel of Judas gets suppressed, found again in the Late Middle Ages, and it ends up as Protestant Canon; in which case it's entirely possible Catholicism and Orthodoxy end up losing a lot more ground and become minority views, but it'd still not quite be "flawed creator", rather a rejection of Nicaea and a return to Arian positions.

 

[da Racontor]

But I see a few problems with this.
I haven't read the book, so just going by your explanation.


--First off, Judas was paid before the Last Supper, so he was already planning on betraying Him before Jesus said anything.

If anything Jesus's comment would probably have been a warning, "I know what you are planning, this will happen if you continue." Then Judas went & did it anyway.

I have heard the argument that Judas could have been forgiven for his betrayal. This comes from the fact that Jesus said the only unforgivable sin is "blasphemy of the spirit." Normally interpreted as (I'll use a modern language paraphrase instead of the theological definition):

God says, "I forgive you."​

Human says, "Screw you, I don't want your forgiveness!"​

And Judas chose the blasphemy of the spirit, demonstrated by his suicide (since you can't ask for forgiveness after death).


--How can Judas, a man, lash out with the strength of all the sins of humanity?

It's not as comfortable to think about, but makes more theological sense that a God-man excepted the burden of humanities sins.


--A bit tangential, I'm pretty sure I know where the inspiration for Jesus going to Hell is from. The Apostles Creed, a common prayer for Catholics at least, had a part were it says:

[Jesus] was crucified, died, and was buried; He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;

The problem is that it's not using the definition "Hell, the place of the damned," it's using the older meaning, "Hell, generic underworld."


--The issue with works like Paradise Lost, is that they ignore basic angelology (yes, it's a thing) & humanise angels for the sake of the story.

It's fine as a work of fiction, but angels aren't humans and wouldn't behave as such.


--The implications of an imperfect God, who is not a supreme being (like Zeus or Thor) but existence itself (which the Abrahamic God is traditional defined as) (& ignoring very advanced theological contradictions) could only be "be afraid, be very afraid!"

We're talking making Sheogorath or Warhammer 40k look tame. Our limited perceptions are just too small to realize it at the moment of our current existence.

Sure, Christianity may take a while to realize that, but once it does. Lots of things change. It may actually resemble the pop culture evil church depictions.




I can think of others, but they are more circumstantial without establishing other assumptions.

 

[mrmandias]

A flawed supreme being would be extremely difficult (i.e., impossible) to square with dominant philosophical positions held in late antiquity which means Christianity probably never achieves the position it held OTL.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

A flawed supreme being would be extremely difficult (i.e., impossible) to square with dominant philosophical positions held in late antiquity which means Christianity probably never achieves the position it held OTL.

Why? Greek and Roman gods were far from being perfect yet it didn't made them unpopular, polytheist religions don't have a perfect supreme being most of the time.

 

[da Racontor]

Why? Greek and Roman gods were far from being perfect yet it didn't made them unpopular, polytheist religions don't have a perfect supreme being most of the time.

The thing Greco-Roman gods are theologically defined differently.

Greco-Roman gods are powerful beings but still are still beings & thus are finite.

Abrahamic God, traditionally, is defined as exists itself, "I am Who am," if you prefer. And not a "finite being in the universe" as the infinite Existence Itself predates the universe.

Finite, supremely powerful, brings have no need to be perfect as their imperfections don't reflect on what it means to exist. But if Existence Itself is flawed, then...

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

The thing Greco-Roman gods are theologically defined differently.

Greco-Roman gods are powerful beings but still are still beings & thus are finite.

Abrahamic God, traditionally, is defined as exists itself, "I am Who am," if you prefer. And not a "finite being in the universe" as the infinite Existence Itself predates the universe.

Finite, supremely powerful, brings have no need to be perfect as their imperfections don't reflect on what it means to exist. But if Existence Itself is flawed, then...

I was asking why would Christianity be less popular if it didn't have a perfect god, the reasons why Christianity spread to me seem independent from this point of theology.

 

[da Racontor]

I was asking why would Christianity be less popular if it didn't have a perfect god, the reasons why Christianity spread to me seem independent from this point of theology.

Sure, the initial spread my not be effected much, but once people start trying to figure out what they believe in, it will either not be the Christianity we know any more. Either that or Christianity won't make internally consistent sense.

 

[Zeca Urubu]

--A bit tangential, I'm pretty sure I know where the inspiration for Jesus going to Hell is from. The Apostles Creed, a common prayer for Catholics at least, had a part were it says:

I've heard that Jesus had gone to hell after the crucifixion, just assumed it was true. But theres people that claim he went there to pardon Adam or smt like that, but yeah it does sound a bit like Folklore or fanfic

 

[Vabasion]

It would make more sense in Christianity for him to be a saint since God sent Jesus with explicit goal to be sacrificed and if Judas wasn’t fulfilling it either someone else does or god compels someone to do it. Either way you can’t punish a man for doing it. Otherwise it seems as if Jesus was meant to live but was betrayed and the one who did it should be hated but also it was always meant to be that way

 

[Diego]

It would make more sense in Christianity for him to be a saint since God sent Jesus with explicit goal to be sacrificed and if Judas wasn’t fulfilling it either someone else does or god compels someone to do it. Either way you can’t punish a man for doing it. Otherwise it seems as if Jesus was meant to live but was betrayed and the one who did it should be hated but also it was always meant to be that way

Then Christianity must either say "don't kill yourself, unless you are Judas, Judas has a free pass" or say that suicide is not a sin. Anyway, Jesus was destined to die for the sins of humanity, but Judas was not destined to betray Jesus and even less for Judas to kill himself. Judas chose to be part of it and chose to commit suicide afterwards and this more than the betrayal was what sealed his fate. The betrayal in fact wasn't even necessary to fulfill Jesus destiny at all because the Romans and the Sanhedrin could act at another time. Jesus was neither liked and neither hiding from the authorities, at least not all the time, and that combination would eventually get him killed.

 

[Vabasion]

Then Christianity must either say "don't kill yourself, unless you are Judas, Judas has a free pass" or say that suicide is not a sin. Anyway, Jesus was destined to die for the sins of humanity, but Judas was not destined to betray Jesus and even less for Judas to kill himself. Judas chose to be part of it and chose to commit suicide afterwards and this more than the betrayal was what sealed his fate. The betrayal in fact wasn't even necessary to fulfill Jesus destiny at all because the Romans and the Sanhedrin could act at another time. Jesus was neither liked and neither hiding from the authorities, at least not all the time, and that combination would eventually get him killed.

How can you destine Jesus to die for sins of humanity without Judas having the destiny to make it happen? If Jesus came amongst nice men and one of the disciples or others betrayed him would he have killed himself?

To say Jesus was not hiding while his interactions with Romans and Jewish Priesthood is an exercise in answering with non answers is silly. He clearly avoided stating directly something that could get him killed. In the end he did scream on the cross like any man and called on himself to help himself not suffer.

Judas clearly acted as part of something greater, since he neither kept the coins nor did he show much care for it, nor did he seek to benefit in any other way from the deed and aparently killed himself soon after.

Or you could say from a purely non ethereal perspective, Jesus was one of many apocalyptic gnostic teachers in the area, got himself killed for it and some of his disciples hid his body and spread a tale of resurrection to maintain their influence and beliefs of others.

 

[Infamous_42]

Why? Greek and Roman gods were far from being perfect yet it didn't made them unpopular, polytheist religions don't have a perfect supreme being most of the time.

I think it was the way the head gods are presented by their worshippers/devote followers. The Christian view of the God (father/yahweh) is presented as an all knowing, all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent , omnipresent, yada yada Yada and every annoying term, without faults, especially during the old testament phase in the Christian Bible.
The difference in the polytheistic beliefs of their gods is they more or less "human" and "down to earth" in scope than the monotheistic and certainly Abrahamic religions which they bring their beliefs of God to eldritch cosmic proportions long before Lovecraft coined and bring the genre of cosmic horror...

(Which reminds me of the comic the goddamned and its spin-off the virgin brides and its interesting take of the abrahamic God and its lore/mythology/cosmology.)

The Goddamned (comics) - Wikipedia

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[Diego]

How can you destine Jesus to die for sins of humanity without Judas having the destiny to make it happen? If Jesus came amongst nice men and one of the disciples or others betrayed him would he have killed himself?

The betrayal part was not necessary, Judas didn't offer some testimony or present some proof to convict Jesus, he did not convince the Sanhedrin or the Romans, his part was unecessary for Jesus to die because everything that he did was to tell about where was Jesus and pinpoint with a kiss who was Jesus. The narrative doesn't have a part where Judas go in front of the Sanhedrin and say for example "Yes, he said he is the son of God and God himself, he said that he is the King of Heaven...". If Judas was not a disciple or if he didn't betray Jesus there would be many ways for Jesus to be found and later killed, for example Jesus could have been spotted by a servant or a friend of a member of the Sanhedrin or be compelled by God to present himself at the temple.

To say Jesus was not hiding while his interactions with Romans and Jewish Priesthood is an exercise in answering with non answers is silly. He clearly avoided stating directly something that could get him killed. In the end he did scream on the cross like any man and called on himself to help himself not suffer.

I mean hidding his location, he entered the city in fanfare and preached openly. His anwers have nothing to do with Judas role.

Judas clearly acted as part of something greater, since he neither kept the coins nor did he show much care for it, nor did he seek to benefit in any other way from the deed and aparently killed himself soon after.

In the end he was part of something greater, but not consciously and not because it was his destiny, he chose to betray Jesus for money or because he thought Jesus would behave in another way (?) or maybe for another reason that we don't know, but he did receive the money and did regret later, and then he commited suicide instead of seeking redemption and that was what probably doomed him, and I say probably because it is not exactly known for sure if he went to hell or not, he certainly does not qualify as a saint though.

Or you could say from a purely non ethereal perspective, Jesus was one of many apocalyptic gnostic teachers in the area, got himself killed for it and some of his disciples hid his body and spread a tale of resurrection to maintain their influence and beliefs of others.

Yes, but we are not discussing that, if we start discussing this there is no reason to even talk about anything in this thread, you are being snarky for the sake of being snarky...

 

[Vabasion]

The betrayal part was not necessary, Judas didn't offer some testimony or present some proof to convict Jesus, he did not convince the Sanhedrin or the Romans, his part was unecessary for Jesus to die because everything that he did was to tell about where was Jesus and pinpoint with a kiss who was Jesus. The narrative doesn't have a part where Judas go in front of the Sanhedrin and say for example "Yes, he said he is the son of God and God himself, he said that he is the King of Heaven...". If Judas was not a disciple or if he didn't betray Jesus there would be many ways for Jesus to be found and later killed, for example Jesus could have been spotted by a servant or a friend of a member of the Sanhedrin or be compelled by God to present himself at the temple.


I mean hidding his location, he entered the city in fanfare and preached openly. His anwers have nothing to do with Judas role.



In the end he was part of something greater, but not consciously and not because it was his destiny, he chose to betray Jesus for money or because he thought Jesus would behave in another way (?) or maybe for another reason that we don't know, but he did receive the money and did regret later, and then he commited suicide instead of seeking redemption and that was what probably doomed him, and I say probably because it is not exactly known for sure if he went to hell or not, he certainly does not qualify as a saint though.


Yes, but we are not discussing that, if we start discussing this there is no reason to even talk about anything in this thread, you are being snarky for the sake of being snarky...

Judas betraying Jesus randomly and not as part of his destiny while Jesus is God all knowing who came down with a plan to get himself killed, why was Judas of all people one of the disciples? I’m sure there were more than the 12 who would follow him and his teachings. Why chose Judas if you are God and you know what he will do, or was he chosen unknowingly and unworthy.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Judas betraying Jesus randomly and not as part of his destiny while Jesus is God all knowing who came down with a plan to get himself killed, why was Judas of all people one of the disciples? I’m sure there were more than the 12 who would follow him and his teachings. Why chose Judas if you are God and you know what he will do, or was he chosen unknowingly and unworthy.

We cannot understand God, that is beyond us simple humans.