what if Jesus had not let himself be captured and executed?

given how Pilate had - before and after Jesus showed up - spared no expense to violently put down troublemakers (even to the point of infiltrating his troops into a local riot), I doubt Pilot would have spared Him.

Well, Pilate's interest was in crushing any anti-Roman activity; IIRC he felt that Jesus was a Jewish affair that didn't affect Rome one way or the other. Don't forget the whole "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" statement by Jesus when the Jews asked about paying Roman taxes; as I recall he didn't seem to be anti-Roman in his message.
 
Being a Christian, the above is my position on it. The fact that Christ could have literally thought his executioners out of existence makes His suffering and later Rising all the more a demonstration of Love.

If you are a non-believer, it would have ruined the big build-up that was supposed to:

A) set off the revolution
or
B) bring about God's kingdom
or
C) prove that he WAS God's son (the misguided religious fanatic theory)
or
D) He did try to get out of it, but the Roman's weren't having any of it (this is the simplest and easiest to understand non-believer explanation, a miscalcluation on Jesus' part).


I too am a Christian, and for a variety of reasons have chosen to believe the basic outline of the Gospel accounts of Christ's sacrifice, death, and resurrection because it is a tremendous evocation of God's love for humanity....

...however, I am enough of a skeptic to recognize the near certainty that the Gospels we have today are not all of the story. It is also clear to me that, once the final schism between Judaism and Christianity occured (much of it because of the mandate Christians believed they had to include gentiles in the new faith), gospel accounts were probably rewritten by the dominant Pauline sects to paint the Roman Empire and Pilate in a favorable light, hence the sympathetic, troubled, Procurator and the noble centurion. I am fully prepared to believe that there was also a very earthly and political anti-Roman message in the "historical" Christ's teachings and that Pilate was completely happy that his puppets in Judea brought this troublemaker to him so he could be quickly and properly executed.
 
That's exactly what makes saying he did run contrary to the belief of faith. You can't truthfully do a WI if you believe in God's plan, mission, etc., etc., which makes this thread difficult for some people.
Then just do what I do: when doing a thread or an ATL, think with an agnostic viewpoint. Be totally neutral, for the sake of TL. I am most certainly a polytheist, but I don't barge into a thread demanding that its parameters fit my beliefs before I post. I go in with a neutral mindset and try to help progress a reasonable POD into an entertaining and plausible AH.
 

Blackwood

Banned
I agree with taking an agnostic viewpoint for the sake of the thread, I was just outlining why it can be difficult for some people. I'm sure nobody likes a thread being bombarded with religious views.
 
Yeah, I mean, I definitely believe, firmly and with all of my heart that the Ottomans captured Constantinople in 1453. But I can totally imagine any number of ATLs where that doesn't happen.

People can believe that Jesus is the son of God, et cetera, so can't you step away from reality (or, at least, what you think of as reality... trying to stay neutral is hard) to imagine an ATL where Jesus isn't the son of God, or, even if he is, perhaps God has a different plan in this ATL (just like, in an ATL about Constantinople, Mehmed II might have a different plan).
 
Well, Pilate's interest was in crushing any anti-Roman activity; IIRC he felt that Jesus was a Jewish affair that didn't affect Rome one way or the other. Don't forget the whole "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" statement by Jesus when the Jews asked about paying Roman taxes; as I recall he didn't seem to be anti-Roman in his message.

That's another thought worth considering...
 
Then just do what I do: when doing a thread or an ATL, think with an agnostic viewpoint. Be totally neutral, for the sake of TL. I am most certainly a polytheist, but I don't barge into a thread demanding that its parameters fit my beliefs before I post. I go in with a neutral mindset and try to help progress a reasonable POD into an entertaining and plausible AH.

I agree with taking an agnostic viewpoint for the sake of the thread, I was just outlining why it can be difficult for some people. I'm sure nobody likes a thread being bombarded with religious views.

If one believes something, it is going to affect the way one sees things as plausible, or what plausible outcomes of any POD may exist. If one is going to suggest a POD that affects someone's religious belief, of course you are going to get posts relating to religious views, like it or not. If one takes it for granted that God exists, as do I and some other members of this board, it is obvious that (Deists notwithstanding) there is going to be some sort of divine influence on history, and one cannot just edit it out 'for the sake of the thread'- it just doesn't work like that.



And it's hardly an 'entertaining and plausible AH' if one knows it would mean one would still be dead in one's sins...
 
Yeah, I mean, I definitely believe, firmly and with all of my heart that the Ottomans captured Constantinople in 1453. But I can totally imagine any number of ATLs where that doesn't happen.

People can believe that Jesus is the son of God, et cetera, so can't you step away from reality (or, at least, what you think of as reality... trying to stay neutral is hard) to imagine an ATL where Jesus isn't the son of God, or, even if he is, perhaps God has a different plan in this ATL (just like, in an ATL about Constantinople, Mehmed II might have a different plan).

It's possible that God might have had a different plan, but if we are to be set free from sin, Jesus either would have had to take the punishment for them or God has a somewhat different character (then again, if we are to remain in sin, God perhaps would have a differnt character too in that He were not loving?)

Better not to think about it, or at least realise why God is as He is.

Considering other ATLs need not take this into account.
 
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