What if - Japan discovers Nuclear weapons first

Gochoson

Banned
I always wondered about it.
What if beetwen 1939 and 1944 - or even as early as 1933 - Japanese scientist discovered the Atomic bomb, and used it again USA, China and the USSR in WW2?
How different present would be now? Could have Axis won if Japan had nukes? Could have the Emperor of Japan shared the secrets with Adolf Hitler, and together they used nukes to back their threats againts the rest of the world?
Just asking.
 

Hendryk

Banned
I always wondered about it.
What if beetwen 1939 and 1944 - or even as early as 1933 - Japanese scientist discovered the Atomic bomb, and used it again USA, China and the USSR in WW2?
One doesn't "discover" the atomic bomb. It's the end result of a tremendously expensive and resource-intensive research project, itself based on the work of cutting-edge physicists, none of whom lived in Japan. The US was the only country with the money and the talent pool to develop a working nuclear device by 1945, and even then it benefited from the help of allied countries and the sharing of previous research. Japan wasn't even in the race.

Then there's the question of having a suitable vector, which Japan didn't have, but it's a moot point.

I hope this doesn't sound like personal criticism, I'm aware I sometimes sound harsher than I intend to.

Ah, understood.
And what if Nazi Germany discovered it first?
Germany was marginally more likely than Japan to develop the atomic bomb, but that's not saying much. The scientific fundamentals its research was based on were faulty and it didn't have the necessary resources either. The Manhattan Project was a huge operation, beyond the capabilities of any other belligerent but the US in the timeframe of WW2. I mean, assume no war, and perhaps France or Britain might have reached that stage circa 1950.
 

Gochoson

Banned
I get it now.
I do not take it as an offense.
But I was not asking "could they have invented nuke", I wish asking what IF they made nukes. :D
 
If either Japan or Germany had researched, discovered and developed nuclear weapons, I seriously doubt either of them would have used them.

If they did, imagine the USSR, ROC, USA, UK vs Japan/Germany. Italy would be out of the picture and the Germans are not too far behind with the Soviets at their doorstep.

It's like ten burly male gangmembers mugging two elderly retired women in a dank back alley on their way home from an AARP expo in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. The elderly women pull out snubnosed revolvers, and the gangmembers pull out Glock 17s and TEC-9s.
 

Gochoson

Banned
If either Japan or Germany had researched, discovered and developed nuclear weapons, I seriously doubt either of them would have used them.

Why? Hitler wouldn have never hesitated to use it againts the Russians and the Americans.
Nor the Japanese. They Axis would just nuke Moscow, Washington DC and Beijing. And then the allies would use their spies to gain the plans of the nukes at all cost.
 
They Axis would just nuke Moscow, Washington DC and Beijing. And then the allies would use their spies to gain the plans of the nukes at all cost.
Putting aside the low order chance of the Axis powers beating the allies to usable nukes:
Moscow? Maybe... it'd be within range for Germany's limited number of heavy bombers in '44 and '45 and the air defense isn't as strong as back west.
Washington? No frickn way. Sure Hitler would want to but he doesn't have aircraft (excluding a small number of Maratime recon and transport planes -none of which could carry a nuke and all of which were at best marginal on the range stakes) with the range to reliably reach the US.
Beijing? Well, it wasn't the capital of the nationalist or communist chinese, so there's no reason for the Japanese to go after it more than numerous other chinese cities...
 
The Axis would nuke Moscow, Washington, D.C. and Beijing.

Beijing and Moscow are possible, but I doubt Washington, D.C. would be nuked. Do the Japanese or Germans have the power projection capability to reach the U.S. east coast undetected and successfully nuke a city?
 

Gochoson

Banned
Beijing and Moscow are possible, but I doubt Washington, D.C. would be nuked. Do the Japanese or Germans have the power projection capability to reach the U.S. east coast undetected and successfully nuke a city?

No they don't.
But Moscow and Beijing would serve as a warning.
If I was the US president, and the Germans and Japanese had nukes - and nuked Beijing and Moscow - I would surrender imediately.
Or send spies to give me the plans of the Nuclear Bomb and strike back.
 
No they don't.
But Moscow and Beijing would serve as a warning.
If I was the US president, and the Germans and Japanese had nukes - and nuked Beijing and Moscow - I would surrender imediately.
Or send spies to give me the plans of the Nuclear Bomb and strike back.

But...Beijing was controlled by the Japanese until they surrendered. Why would they nuke their own city? If the Germans had the Bomb, they would be far more likely to try attacking London.

Even if the Axis somehow gets nukes first, by the timeframe you are talking about, 1944, the Allies had complete air superiority over Japan and Germany. They would be able o find where the nukes were coming from, and send a thousand bombers to attack it. If the Allies were willing to send 1300 bombers to attack Dresden, a city with virtually no military significance, the how will they treat wherever these new, very dangerous superbombs are being produced?

Also, the US was very close to getting nukes by this time. Any attack would just result in even more money being poured into the Manhattan Project. Successful nuclear strikes against London or Moscow would hurt badly, but the end was in sight for the Axis by 1944.
 

Gochoson

Banned
Well then, Japanese would nuke any Chinese or Soviet city they do not own.
The Germans wouldn't nuke London. Hitler wouldn't let that happen: Hitler simply loved the british... he even let the british troops to retreat, while he could have gotten them killed easily.
 
First, it's borderline ASB for either Germany or Japan to develop nuclear weapons. And if either of them develops them, they're not sharing the secrets (Hitler would not share with sub-humans, no?). So you'd need two seperate, successful nuclear bomb programs by Germany and Japan. Borderline ASB.

Now, assuming they develop the weapons, the most likely targets are San Francisco, New York, Moscow, and London. What the above posters forget are that one does not need an airplane to nuke a city. A U-boat driven ever so carefully into a harbor would do the trick. London is a bit iffy, as the Luftwaffe was in no state to carry a bomb through the air defences of the RAF and USAAF by even 1943. And a ship up the Thames, well, some Royal Navy captain gets to claim a kill.

If either Germany or Japan is smart, they'll use it tactically. Leave it behind the lines when the Russians or Americans/British show up, and set it off. Wipe out a few divisions that way. Imagine, the Americans and all the bloodshed to get Iwo Jima, and then a nuke goes off in their face.
 
How many nukes does Japan have? If it's under ten or even twenty I'd say they still lose. If they can use them VERY wisely and bide their time long enough to build enough (unlikely given that the other powers will be building their own nukes or sabotaging the Japanese nuke production in short order) of an arsenal, they can win, but like I pointed out, that's unlikely.

I guess that the best Japan could do is maybe negotiate a peace after destroying a large amount of US/Chinese military forces.
 
Well then, Japanese would nuke any Chinese or Soviet city they do not own.
The Germans wouldn't nuke London. Hitler wouldn't let that happen: Hitler simply loved the british... he even let the british troops to retreat, while he could have gotten them killed easily.

When did Hitler let them retreat when he "could have killed them easily?"
 

Gochoson

Banned
When did Hitler let them retreat when he "could have killed them easily?"

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t374270-4/
"The truth is Hitler was not tough enough in the end. I mean he felt a kinmanship toward the Brits and allowed 300,000 British soldiers to escape. He put the Jews in camps complete with showers, kitchens, beds and recreation. Be nice to the enemy and see where it gets you."

I have no idea which battle was it.
 

Gochoson

Banned
Whatever. Let's get back to the origin subject.
So, let's say that both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan had already invented the Nuclear Weapon - and produced one prototype model - prior to 1938.
So, then, 1939, WW2 breaks out, and..... (you guys continue)
 
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