What if Japan attack both Pearl Habor and Panama canal at the same time

Jason222

Banned
Let say Japan instead just attack Pearl Harbor attack also Panama canal disable it what effect this had during World War 2.
 
How? Where are they going to get a fleet to attack the Panama Canal? They were stretching themselves a lot as it was logistically speaking, and they didn't have another fleet.
 
Hawaii was already pushing the range of Japan's fleet. Panama Canal is just insane.

Not to mention that in all likelihood, it will simply make two weak attacks instead of one strong attack.
 

Cook

Banned
An attack by B1 submarines would be achievable, but is unlikely to inflict much, if any, real damage.
 
Japan had trouble reaching Pearl Harbor, how would have they reached Panama? Unless if there's a POD of around 1900, this is very unlikely. However, to answer your question, if Japan did pull this off(unlikely)then the US would likely still have all 8 battleships at the end of the war, while Panama would only be moderately damaged.
 
Attack the canal? With what? Camera-wielding tourists?

Just reaching Hawaii was at the outer limits of their logistical capabilities.
 
Japan had a number of I-400 submarine carriers that were designed for Panama Canal raids in mind. However, it bears mentioning that the payload size of the submarine launched float planes (the Aichi M6A Seiran), was a miniscule 850 kilograms. They were basically limited to one of three loadouts: a pair of 250 kilo bombs, a single torpedo, or a single 850 kilo bomb. You're not going to even scratch the canal locks even with four or five of those Seirans.
 
In my research for TMMAM, I read that there was concern that a hostile power - the USSR in this case, but it could have been Japan - might scuttle a freighter in one of the locks. That obviously wouldn't put the Canal out of action permanently, but it might shut it down for a while.
 
Japan had a number of I-400 submarine carriers that were designed for Panama Canal raids in mind. However, it bears mentioning that the payload size of the submarine launched float planes (the Aichi M6A Seiran), was a miniscule 850 kilograms. They were basically limited to one of three loadouts: a pair of 250 kilo bombs, a single torpedo, or a single 850 kilo bomb. You're not going to even scratch the canal locks even with four or five of those Seirans.

And even then they were not ready until late 1944/1945 so they could not be used in concurrence with the Pearl Harbor attacks.
 

Goldwater64

Banned
I couldn't see it being much worse than the sub attacks on the west coast.

Did the USN have any equipment guarding the canal?
 
The Panama Canal Zone was one of the most heavily defended strips of waterway in the Western Hemisphere during the war in terms of AA guns on the ground, though I'm not so sure about naval complements.
 
About the only way I can think of to carry this off would be to get supremely lucky---e.g. you manage to hit a big munitions ship or oil tanker or both while it's in the canal with some bombs or torpedos and set off an ungodly secondary explosion. Not something you could reliably count on.
 
How much damage would a ww2-era nuke do to the Panama canal?

An ATL with much faster development of atomic weapons could see most major powers getting them before a WW2 starts.
 
How much damage would a ww2-era nuke do to the Panama canal?

An ATL with much faster development of atomic weapons could see most major powers getting them before a WW2 starts.

If somehow you do give Japan Nukes, or really any world power them who is hostile to the US, and that is a huge leap, delivering it to the Canal is neigh-impossible unless it is a suicide mission where a ship hides it in its hold and sets it off while in the canal, and even then that seems doubtfully.
 

Cook

Banned
Truk Island to Panama is 14,000km. A B1 submarine had a range of 26,000km, so given a rendezvous with another vessel to refuel on the return the mission is achievable, so everyone can stop saying ‘how do they get there’ now.
 
Unless the thing happens to be in a lock, a munitions ship is the last thing you want to hit in the canal, the reason being, when it explodes it won't leave a very big blockage.
 
Truk Island to Panama is 14,000km. A B1 submarine had a range of 26,000km, so given a rendezvous with another vessel to refuel on the return the mission is achievable, so everyone can stop saying ‘how do they get there’ now.

Let me clarify: "How do they get there with any meaningful forces to actually damage the canal". Yes, submarines could make the journey, but a few floatplanes with 250kg bombs will do nothing if they can even penetrate the coverage. For a nuclear weapon to be used would be even more absurd, for that would require a huge bomber unless many other techs are wanked that make the timeline completely different.
 
I apologize. You made it sound like that they were ending half the KB. In that case, PH is the same as OTL, and the Panama Canal is barely damaged(some paint chipped). You'd need to send a very large fleet of submarines for a reasonable hope of sucess at shutting down the Canal.
 
If somehow you do give Japan Nukes, or really any world power them who is hostile to the US, and that is a huge leap, delivering it to the Canal is neigh-impossible unless it is a suicide mission where a ship hides it in its hold and sets it off while in the canal, and even then that seems doubtfully.

Sacrificing a submarine or cargo ship isn't that big of a loss for delivering a strategic weapon.

Although the chances of successfully doing it while the US is on alert is low.

A sneak attack on the other hand would be much more successful.

If everyone gets nuclear weapons, there'll be no taboo.
 
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