What if Japan attack both Pearl Habor and Panama canal at the same time

Sacrificing a submarine or cargo ship isn't that big of a loss for delivering a strategic weapon.

Although the chances of successfully doing it while the US is on alert is low.

A sneak attack on the other hand would be much more successful.

If everyone gets nuclear weapons, there'll be no taboo.

But giving Japan nuclear weapons by 1941-ish is requires a POD that would remove the Pacific War as we know it from the timeline. It would need a Japan friendly with the West to import Uranium, as if I am not mistaken the only known deposits in the 1920's or 30's, maybe even the only reachable deposits with current tech where in the Belgian Congo. Even if you wank mining tech as well Japan would have no access to fissionable material except through trade, and in a world where everyone knows about nukes so early they would only be traded to a very friendly power.
 
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Cook

Banned
The most likely scenario is the dispatch of two B1 submarines to Panama, each acting as a mother-ship for two mini-subs, which would be launched close to the entrance to the canal with the intention of penetrating the screens and torpedoing shipping inside the canal and obstruct it. The B1s would then remain in the area for a period of time, torpedoing targets of opportunity.

The most likely result is the failure of most of the mini-subs to penetrate the defences, with one possibly managing to enter the canal and torpedoing a target before being destroyed.
 
The most likely scenario is the dispatch of two B1 submarines to Panama, each acting as a mother-ship for two mini-subs, which would be launched close to the entrance to the canal with the intention of penetrating the screens and torpedoing shipping inside the canal and obstruct it. The B1s would then remain in the area for a period of time, torpedoing targets of opportunity.

The most likely result is the failure of most of the mini-subs to penetrate the defences, with one possibly managing to enter the canal and torpedoing a target before being destroyed.

Just enough to make later historians wonder wtf Japan was thinking?
 
So basically the normal reaction to all of Japan's military decisions from 1931-1945.

I think this post deserves to be left undisputed. You win. :D

But I do want to note: "But more so than usual." for the sake of clarification - at least some of Japan's decisions weren't completely unsuccessful.

Why the ones involving midget submarines were never among them is something I trust the experts can answer.
 
Could Japanese floatplanes perhaps carry a light naval mine? Assembling a sizable Japanese sub fleet together (okay thats pretty unrealistic right there), could the subs and their floatplanes deploy enough mines inside and outside the Canal? Maybe destroy some shipping with the subs while they're at it. It could delay the use of the Canal for a day, while the US clears the area out.

Utterly useless. But still more effective than trying to destroy the locks.
 

Cook

Banned
Just enough to make later historians wonder wtf Japan was thinking?
That is the case with the entire Japanese mini-sub program; they weren’t even reliable in training, being almost unsteerable and frequently killing the crew. It is surprising that the Japanese didn’t opt instead for piloted torpedoes like the Italians.
 
That is the case with the entire Japanese mini-sub program; they weren’t even reliable in training, being almost unsteerable and frequently killing the crew. It is surprising that the Japanese didn’t opt instead for piloted torpedoes like the Italians.

Why did they even make them to begin with?

The whole of Japan's performance in regards to submarines, other than their effective torpedoes, is gratingly (as someone who has developed a dislike of sheer stupidity) underwhelming.

Especially since you'd think they'd have found submarines to suit certain cultural ideas - although I suppose there's not enough banzai in a stealth attack.
 
Could Japanese floatplanes perhaps carry a light naval mine? Assembling a sizable Japanese sub fleet together (okay thats pretty unrealistic right there), could the subs and their floatplanes deploy enough mines inside and outside the Canal? Maybe destroy some shipping with the subs while they're at it. It could delay the use of the Canal for a day, while the US clears the area out.

Utterly useless. But still more effective than trying to destroy the locks.

Or they could just use submarines to deploy mines. I know the US spent time to try and develop mine-laying subs (such as the Argonaut). Now if the Japanese did the same I am not sure, but how hard could it be?
 
Let me clarify: "How do they get there with any meaningful forces to actually damage the canal". Yes, submarines could make the journey, but a few floatplanes with 250kg bombs will do nothing if they can even penetrate the coverage.
Kamikaze attack with the planes?
 
Why did they even make them to begin with?

The whole of Japan's performance in regards to submarines, other than their effective torpedoes, is gratingly (as someone who has developed a dislike of sheer stupidity) underwhelming.

Especially since you'd think they'd have found submarines to suit certain cultural ideas - although I suppose there's not enough banzai in a stealth attack.
There could be some speculation fridge horror in there. Midget submarines being used as very elaborate diversions for the mothership to get a hit in on a warship. Or midget submarines being used to increase the chances of a successful attack (if the mothership gets destroyed the midget submarine could finish the job, or vice versa). Fridge horror since if the mothership gets destroyed the midget submarine is up the creek without a paddle. :eek:
 
Why did they even make them to begin with?

The whole of Japan's performance in regards to submarines, other than their effective torpedoes, is gratingly (as someone who has developed a dislike of sheer stupidity) underwhelming.

Well, IIRC Japanese for some reason wanted to use their subs in attacks on enemy fleet, and developed doctrine only for that. Had they put their subs at the West Coast and attacked US merchant traffic it would have been way better for them. But, as Japanese tended to do throughout WW2 they shot themselves in the foot.
 
Or they just use submarines to deploy mines. I know the US spent time to try and develop mine-laying subs (such as the Argonaut). Now if the Japanese did the same I am not sure, but how hard could it be?
Yeah i thought of that too (i said use the subs to deploy mines in my post).
 
But giving Japan nuclear weapons by 1941-ish is requires a POD that would remove the Pacific War as we know it from the timeline. It would need a Japan friendly with the West to import Uranium, as if I am not mistaken the only known deposits in the 1920's or 30's, maybe even the only reachable deposits with current tech where in the Belgian Congo. Even if you wank mining tech as well Japan would have no access to fissionable material except through trade, and in a world where everyone knows about nukes so early they would only be traded to a very friendly power.

Even this scenario is more likely than the OPs. Any ALT WW2 sneak attack on the US by Japan would probably include Pearl Harbour as well, so I'm just thinking of something that'll work.

But in regards to damaging the canal, the easiest way would be through the Atlantic side, where the Gatun dam is more vulnerable, where enough leaks would drain out the lake, rendering the canal unusable until the water is replenished.

A sabotage operation would be more successful that any naval incursion, due to the stated logistical difficulties of the Japanese.
 
There could be some speculation fridge horror in there. Midget submarines being used as very elaborate diversions for the mothership to get a hit in on a warship. Or midget submarines being used to increase the chances of a successful attack (if the mothership gets destroyed the midget submarine could finish the job, or vice versa). Fridge horror since if the mothership gets destroyed the midget submarine is up the creek without a paddle. :eek:

Given what the Japanese were willing to do, this is not as horrifying as it should be.

And that's a sombering thought. What does it say about someone's regard for human life that this is just "Yeah, we know the Japanese didn't give a shit"?

:eek:
 

Hyperion

Banned
Kamikaze attack with the planes?

The Japanese submarines built to carry seaplanes where not commissioned until 1944/1945 genius.:rolleyes:

Best a 1941 submarine can do is torpedo ships near Panama, or launch minisubmarines, or try and lay mines.

If you want to talk 1941 seaplanes, you can take this thread to the ASB section, where it belongs what with talk of nukes in 1941.
 

sharlin

Banned
To attack Panama with subs you'd need to change the IJN's doctrine as well which was to support the fleet and sink hostile warships, not merchants.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The Japanese submarines built to carry seaplanes where not commissioned until 1944/1945 genius.:rolleyes:

Best a 1941 submarine can do is torpedo ships near Panama, or launch minisubmarines, or try and lay mines.

If you want to talk 1941 seaplanes, you can take this thread to the ASB section, where it belongs what with talk of nukes in 1941.

No need to be rude.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
But in regards to damaging the canal, the easiest way would be through the Atlantic side, where the Gatun dam is more vulnerable, where enough leaks would drain out the lake, rendering the canal unusable until the water is replenished.

A sabotage operation would be more successful that any naval incursion, due to the stated logistical difficulties of the Japanese.

If by planes you use torpedoes on the lock gates. If a hole is blow in all the lock doors, then the lake drains, and their is likely major erosion damage. With some luck, maybe the canal is closed for months. But the only plan required a special built submarine that did not exist at the start of the war, and requires a POD a few years before the war to build.

Agreed, the sabotage is more likely. Many a commando team landed by submarine or false flag ships could make a penetration, take over some portion, and damage it. Something a simple as scuttling a couple of ships at the right point. Or maybe taking over the gate house, opening the gates, then jamming them open might have a shot. Based on how prepared Pearl was that day, I wonder how prepared the guards around the canal were that day.
 
If by planes you use torpedoes on the lock gates. If a hole is blow in all the lock doors, then the lake drains, and their is likely major erosion damage. With some luck, maybe the canal is closed for months. But the only plan required a special built submarine that did not exist at the start of the war, and requires a POD a few years before the war to build.

Agreed, the sabotage is more likely. Many a commando team landed by submarine or false flag ships could make a penetration, take over some portion, and damage it. Something a simple as scuttling a couple of ships at the right point. Or maybe taking over the gate house, opening the gates, then jamming them open might have a shot. Based on how prepared Pearl was that day, I wonder how prepared the guards around the canal were that day.

that's what I was thinking

special operations team disguised as tourists or laborers sabotages the canal in some form
 
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