What if Israel agree UNEF on there border in 1967 and break blockade with subs

Jason222

Banned
This would spitting in Nasser face in way putting it. Here he is trying push war on Israel trying remove the UNEF force so make war on Israel us the Gulf of Aqaba instead and build own subs get to red sea order trade Africa and own military needs. Israel easily get France and UK board to sell them subamirce help build design and build own subs.
 
I really doubt that Israel circa-1967 could build a sizable submarine fleet, let alone a merchant submarine fleet. A cargo submarine capable of haulling either dry goods or fuel is a way more complicated and expensive undertaking than building a fleet of attack subs. Also, I don't think that the French or British would have provided any sort of assistance to israel if they tried to undertake this task. Anglo/Franco-Israeli relations were not exactly stellar at this point. The French put a arms embargo on Israel around this time.
 
UNEF in Israel is a political non-starter, Eshkol's Government would die on a vote about it, we'd see Allon in office maybe Dayan
 
I really doubt that Israel circa-1967 could build a sizable submarine fleet, let alone a merchant submarine fleet. A cargo submarine capable of haulling either dry goods or fuel is a way more complicated and expensive undertaking than building a fleet of attack subs. Also, I don't think that the French or British would have provided any sort of assistance to israel if they tried to undertake this task. Anglo/Franco-Israeli relations were not exactly stellar at this point. The French put a arms embargo on Israel around this time.
They did have two subs and were trying to acquire more in 1967- but that would not likely have done much for the blockade.
 
In naval matters Israel was so weak that after the 1967 war there was a meeting during which the Israeli navy was ordered to explain why it should continue to exist.
 
In naval matters Israel was so weak that after the 1967 war there was a meeting during which the Israeli navy was ordered to explain why it should continue to exist.

true, basically all they did was almost start World War III and piss off Israel's Water carrier at the UN, not a shining moment, Air Power and Tank Power have always been the base of Israeli military thinking, ship power being less than an after thought.
 
Do you mean breaking the blockade by using subs to sink Egyptian naval vessels enforcing the blockade? That maybe could work, dictators have traditionally been loathe to lose naval vessels. Perhaps a combined naval operation where the sub sinks a warship and a convoy is pushed through in the aftermath.

Runnning the blockade using subs, Operation Magic Carpet style, is not an option. The whole point of the Red Sea outlet is that it allows Israel to easily trade east of Suez, using subs instead of merchant ships is worse that just sailing around Africa from the Med ports.
 
Do you mean breaking the blockade by using subs to sink Egyptian naval vessels enforcing the blockade? That maybe could work, dictators have traditionally been loathe to lose naval vessels. Perhaps a combined naval operation where the sub sinks a warship and a convoy is pushed through in the aftermath.

Runnning the blockade using subs, Operation Magic Carpet style, is not an option. The whole point of the Red Sea outlet is that it allows Israel to easily trade east of Suez, using subs instead of merchant ships is worse that just sailing around Africa from the Med ports.

Not to mention subs can't do much against naval mines and beach guns...
 
They can sink ships on the quiet and land commandos, that's about it, however that could be handy in this case.
 

Jason222

Banned
They did have two subs and were trying to acquire more in 1967- but that would not likely have done much for the blockade.

I mean us subs as blockade runners and to get neutral water bring then unload the supplies on cargo ship before heading back home. 2 subs possible been enough to do that since what Israel trade with Africa limit to something normal carry on subs until Israel build a few cargo subs design carry everything meet up cargo ships in the red sea beyond Egypt blocked.
 
For purposes of moving oil or natural gas two subs would not begin to have been sufficient for Israel's needs.

That is a bit of an understatement. Two attack submarines aren't going to be moving any meaningful cargo. To move cargo necessary to support a nation, you are going to need a purpose built submarine similar in size to a Typhoon class sub, a task that would have been impossible for 1967 Israel (and would still be difficult today).

Even if Israel did manage to build such a fleet, I think that the ASW capabilities of Egyptian navy would have made life pretty miserable for the blockade runners.
 
Israel could still access the Med without restriction, a single merchant ship sailing from Haifa to Somalia (for example) through Gibraltar and around the Cape would be more efficient than shuttle runs by subs through the Red Sea.

If a sub can carry 20 tons of cargo, by the time enough runs had been made to build up 20,000 tons of something a merchant ship could have circumnavigated Africa. If the cargo is that urgent then air freight could be used.
 

Jason222

Banned
Israel could still access the Med without restriction, a single merchant ship sailing from Haifa to Somalia (for example) through Gibraltar and around the Cape would be more efficient than shuttle runs by subs through the Red Sea.

If a sub can carry 20 tons of cargo, by the time enough runs had been made to build up 20,000 tons of something a merchant ship could have circumnavigated Africa. If the cargo is that urgent then air freight could be used.
One could argue Israel could buy what so wish from Europe for what ever wants from Afirca or Iran other things need build nuclear bombs that area subs beging to make sense since only smell part Israel buying Afirca.
 
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