What if instead of Britain, America went to war with Spain in 1812?

Most of you are forgetting that the biggest enemy the Americans may be facing are not the Spaniards, but the Mexicans.
I think the Mexican Criollos would be ambivalent at this time, in 10-20 years time they would be allied, and after that point they become inimical.
 
America just piggybacks off the filibusters that were already active in Spanish Texas supplying them with arms and cash while the country tools up.

I could easily see America getting Florida and everything up to the Rio Grande.
 

Lusitania

Donor
America just piggybacks off the filibusters that were already active in Spanish Texas supplying them with arms and cash while the country tools up.

I could easily see America getting Florida and everything up to the Rio Grande.
Why would USA be looking at Texas. There were hardly any Anerican settlers there in 1812. At that time there was no Manifest destiny so the USA would not look at moving anywhere west of the Mississipi.

People think of the situation the US was in it was slowly settling the US Midwest (Ohio Valley) it had secured all land east if Mississippi. What did it need? If it had gained French Louisiana if was looking towards the only piece of land east of it it did not control Florida. That’s it. Nothing else the country had ZERO ability to project power west of the river. If the country did not control French Louisiana because France refuse to sell or controlled by Britain or Spain that would be its priority. Nothing in Texas. It is frustrating that people are talking about US in the 1830s - 1850s power and ability in 1812. The two countries are completely different in terms of thinking, power projection and most important ability.
 
Why would USA be looking at Texas. There were hardly any Anerican settlers there in 1812. At that time there was no Manifest destiny so the USA would not look at moving anywhere west of the Mississipi.

People think of the situation the US was in it was slowly settling the US Midwest (Ohio Valley) it had secured all land east if Mississippi. What did it need? If it had gained French Louisiana if was looking towards the only piece of land east of it it did not control Florida. That’s it. Nothing else the country had ZERO ability to project power west of the river. If the country did not control French Louisiana because France refuse to sell or controlled by Britain or Spain that would be its priority. Nothing in Texas. It is frustrating that people are talking about US in the 1830s - 1850s power and ability in 1812. The two countries are completely different in terms of thinking, power projection and most important ability.

Think of it as geopolitical chess. Someone will need to settle the land but the growth of the US was rather high in the 1790s-1810s both by reproduction and immigration. Texas, Florida, etc. are thinly settled *at the time* but someone will claim/settle them, and better us than them.
 
Why would USA be looking at Texas. There were hardly any Anerican settlers there in 1812. At that time there was no Manifest destiny so the USA would not look at moving anywhere west of the Mississipi.

People think of the situation the US was in it was slowly settling the US Midwest (Ohio Valley) it had secured all land east if Mississippi. What did it need? If it had gained French Louisiana if was looking towards the only piece of land east of it it did not control Florida. That’s it. Nothing else the country had ZERO ability to project power west of the river. If the country did not control French Louisiana because France refuse to sell or controlled by Britain or Spain that would be its priority. Nothing in Texas. It is frustrating that people are talking about US in the 1830s - 1850s power and ability in 1812. The two countries are completely different in terms of thinking, power projection and most important ability.

They'd be looking at Texas because in OTL Secretary of State Monroe was already waffling on backing American filibusters who were present there. They also had a semi-reasonable claim on it where the Louisiana Purchase extended to the Rio Grande. That's the great part about the whole endeavor; America has to do almost nothing other than supply those guys with arms and money and they'll do the heavy lifting, America doesn't have to even outfit an expedition and worry about supplying one (though they could if they wanted to). If they win America gets Texas. If not, it didn't invest much in the first place.
 
For arguments sake, lets assume the LA purchase has gone as OTL, and now a war with Spain has popped up. OTL, there was a squabble over where the border is (and even whether the purchase was legitimate from Spain POV). If there's a war, it's only natural that US is going to push a greedy claim. My opinion is that the purchase is what really put wind in the sail of manifest destiny, and even though it's not in full swing yet, manifest destiny, and greed will be factors.

The big bugaboo is that US doesn't have much ability to project power that far. They'll want to, though. Don't know how big a separatist movement there is in Texas at the time, but US will back it if they're at war. I believe they had just stolen west florida that way (hey, there might be a spark for the war)
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
What if the US came to some sort of resolution over most of its issues with Britain, and went to war with Spain instead?

Targeting Florida, possibly access to the Pacific, possibly Spain’s Caribbean possessions, and possibly Northern Mexico?

Could this War happen?

What are the likely range of results?

For an example of earlier discussion of this, see:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...dependent-and-gets-near-otl-sw-border.427314/

....and not exactly the same thing, but a discussion with common themes:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...d-as-fast-against-new-spain-as-mexico.275213/
 

Lusitania

Donor
They'd be looking at Texas because in OTL Secretary of State Monroe was already waffling on backing American filibusters who were present there. They also had a semi-reasonable claim on it where the Louisiana Purchase extended to the Rio Grande. That's the great part about the whole endeavor; America has to do almost nothing other than supply those guys with arms and money and they'll do the heavy lifting, America doesn't have to even outfit an expedition and worry about supplying one (though they could if they wanted to). If they win America gets Texas. If not, it didn't invest much in the first place.
But we discussing that they not have Louisiana that is the reason they are looking elsewhere not towards Britain.

i do not know what history you are considering. While the US had designs on Texas. There were no Americans in Texas. Since till 1820 it wAs illegal for Americans to be in Texas. Those that did were subject to capture and imprisonments.
 
But we discussing that they not have Louisiana that is the reason they are looking elsewhere not towards Britain.

i do not know what history you are considering. While the US had designs on Texas. There were no Americans in Texas. Since till 1820 it wAs illegal for Americans to be in Texas. Those that did were subject to capture and imprisonments.

There were loads of Americans in Texas (proportionally, Texas was pretty empty at the time).

Zebulon Pike expedition- arrested and turned around 1806-7

Captain Wiliam Shaler (US special agent of state department- observe and assist revolution in Mexico and Texas by raising men and money (2IC to Gutiérrez, leader of small rebellion). Sent by Monroe

Dr. John Hamilton Robinson- reported that Gutiérrez had 2,500 men, composed primarily of Americans, Spanish Texans and Indians. Sent on a peace/ fact finding to northern Mexico, but also met with Shaler and Gutiérrez. Also sent by Monroe.

Augustus William Mcgee- United States Military Graduate 1808, resigned US army and went to Mexico to lead the American portion of Gutiérrez forces (likely at the behest of Shaler)

The place was littered with America intrigue and Americans, many of the important ones have some connection to Monroe and the State Department.
 

Lusitania

Donor
There were loads of Americans in Texas (proportionally, Texas was pretty empty at the time).

Zebulon Pike expedition- arrested and turned around 1806-7

Captain Wiliam Shaler (US special agent of state department- observe and assist revolution in Mexico and Texas by raising men and money (2IC to Gutiérrez, leader of small rebellion). Sent by Monroe

Dr. John Hamilton Robinson- reported that Gutiérrez had 2,500 men, composed primarily of Americans, Spanish Texans and Indians. Sent on a peace/ fact finding to northern Mexico, but also met with Shaler and Gutiérrez. Also sent by Monroe.

Augustus William Mcgee- United States Military Graduate 1808, resigned US army and went to Mexico to lead the American portion of Gutiérrez forces (likely at the behest of Shaler)

The place was littered with America intrigue and Americans, many of the important ones have some connection to Monroe and the State Department.
Ok we talking about settlers. Yes there were Americans poking their nose but no settlers
 

Lusitania

Donor
No, there weren't settlers, but there were a lot of Americans filibustering and agitating for annexation.

But several readers have stated that one of the reason to attack Spain in Texas.

Yes and while these self funded and independent groups did venture into Texas they had very little impact with Spanish troops able to defeat them. The US in 1812 would do well to continue down its path of supporting them.

The biggest drawback to the US would be that it’s military would continue to be secound rate. The Americans used lessons learned from war of 1812 to reform their forces. Here a lack of military action against a strong opponent in Florida will delay much needed reforms. Heck we could even see them being defeated in war against Mexico.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
So it seems uncertain the US would win, except for the Florida fronts and probably New Orleans. Do we have consensus that at this time the US does not have what it takes to successfully invade overseas holdings like Cuba and Puerto Rico?

How do the US and Spanish navies available for Caribbean ops compare in 1812?
 
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