What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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No, but I'm assume the fuselage.

So we can assume that no further information on bomb stowage, such as bomb type and configuration is available, right? Were they stacked vertically or horizontally, or Heikel-style, on end. They could even be in the wing itself. Or not. Any confirmation from another source?
 

Deleted member 1487

So we can assume that no further information on bomb stowage, such as bomb type and configuration is available, right? Were they stacked vertically or horizontally, or Heikel-style, on end. They could even be in the wing itself. Or not. Any confirmation from another source?
Nope, I put a request in on an aircraft specialist site, but I have no concrete information.
 
The nose of the V3 prototype looks pretty larger, could it have fitted 4 MK108 30mm cannons instead of 20mm ones for strafing?

Would you really need that much volume of fire for soft skinned targets? British fighters of the 50s had 4 Adens but those could damage armoured targets. For the weight, you could have a single 3,7cm plus MGs or 1 Mk103 plus two 20mm.
 
Nope, I put a request in on an aircraft specialist site, but I have no concrete information.

It probably was never tested/calculated that far. Once the heavy fighter version lost out for the Bf110, the other versions were probably never fully developed, even as far as full specs go.
 
Hs 124 ...

Downside - considerably lower speed (270 mph) than the Bf 110

Upside - better manoeuvrability and greater range than the Bf 110 (even reportedly better than the Bf 109 during training flights)

Whilst the picture you have provided is a nice sleek V3 my understanding is that the V3 was never built so this is just a mockup or artists impression ... not saying it wouldn't have looked like that but it's a far cry from the V1 and V2.

hs124-ph-1.jpg

hmmz the hs124v2 looks an awful lot like the Fokker T-V
1_Fokker_T5_at_Schiphol__1_.jpg


https://sobchak.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/fokkert5_cut.jpg
 

Deleted member 1487

Would you really need that much volume of fire for soft skinned targets? British fighters of the 50s had 4 Adens but those could damage armoured targets. For the weight, you could have a single 3,7cm plus MGs or 1 Mk103 plus two 20mm.
Need? Probably not. Want? Hell yes. It would effectively mean anything on the road would be wrecked; probably two would suffice with 2 x 20mm in addition. With the layout of the V3 prototype I don't know if you could do a 3 gun layout. You could have 2x 20mm and an underslung 37mm.
 

Deleted member 1487

It probably was never tested/calculated that far. Once the heavy fighter version lost out for the Bf110, the other versions were probably never fully developed, even as far as full specs go.
The first version was for a bomber, I don't think they tested a heavy fighter version of the Hs127
 

Deleted member 1487

that would explain why they were inspired at first by the fokker bomber
You've got causality backwards there, the Fokker came after the Henschel was cancelled; and the Hs127 is not the 124 that looks like the Fokker.
 

Deleted member 1487

Sorry, skipped a page on the thread and was assuming you were talking about the Hs124.
Leo broke us off on a tangent about the 127; I'm still for the 124 personally. The 124 had a lot more testing, as info is more available.
 

Deleted member 1487

So getting back on track, the Hs124 as a tactical bomber with stretch and ability to modify the wings as necessary seems pretty possible and it would be a fine bomber for the early war period, better than the Do17, Bf110, and Ju88 in the light bombing role, while being just as viable for the night-fighter role as all of the above. With the same engines it would be faster than the historical Ju88 for any job it did IOTL, while its maneuverability would make it a solid light/tactical bomber. It would have much of the same issues any bomber had when not in an air superiority environment (not an issue early war), though it would be quite a bit faster than any bomber the Germans had before the Do217 when equipped with DB601 engines. With bombs internally it would have been faster than the Bf110 with external bombs, though with external bombs it would probably be around the same speed. That's not a problem at all in the East, but a serious issue in the West by 1943. As a light night bomber it would have been just fine against Allied night fighters, but probably by 1944 it could run into issues unless it could do some significant aerodynamic upgrades and take the DB603 engine by then.

In 1939 it would be fine with the Do17's 1000hp BMW/Bramo radial engines, especially for ground strike missions, while by 1941 it should transition to the DB601/5. By 1943 it better be able to move to the BMW 801 or DB603, but in the 1939-42 period it would be pretty solid with existing engines, the only hypothetical would be its ability to be modified to take heavier late war engines.

So thoughts about it taking over the tactical bombing role?
 
Okay. Back on topic. Sometimes, it's good to have perspective, so I've called up the Bf-110, the Hs-124 and the Bristol Blenheim I. The 110 spans 16.27 m, the Hs-124 18.2 m, and the Blenheim in the middle with 17.17 m. The Blenheim had an internal bomb bay, but a primitive one. Sometimes, it's easy to be impressed by the razzle-dazzle of an artist's impression, but I find that a good old 3-view doesn't play favorites. I think one of these was better than the others. What do you think?

henshel-127.gif
 

Deleted member 1487

Okay. Back on topic. Sometimes, it's good to have perspective, so I've called up the Bf-110, the Hs-124 and the Bristol Blenheim I. The 110 spans 16.27 m, the Hs-124 18.2 m, and the Blenheim in the middle with 17.17 m. The Blenheim had an internal bomb bay, but a primitive one. Sometimes, it's easy to be impressed by the razzle-dazzle of an artist's impression, but I find that a good old 3-view doesn't play favorites. I think one of these was better than the others. What do you think?
Depends on what you're going for. The Bf110 and Blenheim each went through development, the 124 was not really. Frankly I'm still partial to the 124 as light, tactical bomber with development potential.
The Bf110 is fine as a fighter-bomber, but most of what it can do is done better by the Fw187, while the 124 has the light bomber (which the replacement for the Bf110 was) role far better filled and can do the night fighter, long range recon, etc. better. Both the 124 and Fw187 have better range on internal fuel, the later especially with bombs.

Edit:
And a point about the upgrades in speed: check out the larger, heavier Do17 upgrading to the Do215, which was basically the Do17Z getting a Db601 engine to become the 215. It went from a top speed of 255mph with 1000hp Bramo radial engines (150hp more powerful than the Hs124) to 1175hp DB601 and a top speed of 315mph and was 1000kg heavier than the V2 prototype of the Hs124, not to mention larger.

Even assuming weight gain in development (which would happen simply due to engine upgrades meaning taking on more weight) it would weigh about the same as the Bf110C even though it was bigger. Not sure if the V3 version weighed more than the V2, but I am assuming so due to the extra cannons and metal nose vs. glass nose of the V2. So with DB601A engines I'm thinking the Hs124 reaches 330mph easily, if not more. I probably wouldn't be as fast as the Bf110 due to drag, but with some aerodynamic refinements in development and over the course of its service life it could improve significantly. There is no question of it being able to take everything through the DB605, but getting to the DB603 or BMW 801 is debateable. Perhaps by then the Hs224 would replace it?
 
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It's hard to believe the Hs 124V3 would have been a clearly better choice than the Bf 110.

For some reason, people always want to imagine a Luftwaffe without Messerschmitt products (He 112 or He 100 instead of Bf 109; Hs 124 or Fw 187 instead of Bf 110; He 280 instead of Me 262, etc). The fact is that in almost all instances, the Luftwaffe probably made the correct choice in the long run.

The Ju 88 was, with the Bf 109 and Fw 190, one of the few German aircraft that had a decent shelf-life (in the 88's case as the 188 and 388). Speculating that the Hs 127 or Bf 162 would have equaled it over the long haul based on early test models and designer's calculations is risky.

Which is why they eventually opted to go for the Me410 light, fast bomber with its 500kg payload. The Hs127 is just that, but in 1937 instead of 1943. Its also pretty much the Mosquito made out of metal instead of wood and a slightly different wing layout.

do not see the need or POD for 110 being replaced, and certainly not the JU-88, even leaving aside politics which might have worked in their favor.

HOWEVER, it does seem that the ME-410 could logically never get built, coming after their fiasco with 210? that Messerschmitt gets slapped?

at that time V2.0 of Henschel is built? or my choice TA-154/254?
 

Deleted member 1487

do not see the need or POD for 110 being replaced, and certainly not the JU-88, even leaving aside politics which might have worked in their favor.

HOWEVER, it does seem that the ME-410 could logically never get built, coming after their fiasco with 210? that Messerschmitt gets slapped?

at that time V2.0 of Henschel is built? or my choice TA-154/254?

If we are talking about the Hs124 then the Ju88 stays. The Ta-154 never worked even before Tego Film became an issue. A major benefit of the Hs124 is that it can stay around much more readily than the Bf110 due to being bigger and more modifiable. The light bomber aspect then allows it to function as a tactical bomber more easily given that the Fw187 is also being built and taking over the long range fighter/daylight bomber interceptor role, while taking over for the Do17 early.
 
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