What if Hungary never existed?

Black Sept

Suppose the hungarian tribes that invaded the Carpathian Basin at the end of the 9th century got instead 'lost' somewhere(Magna Hungaria, Levedia, Etelköz, wherever) on the vast Eurasian Steppe and never reached the valley of the Danube.

It seems likely that the power vacuum in the Carpathian Basin would have been filled by some slavic state, maybe Greater Moravia or a succesor state to it. Supposing this state succeeds in becoming a more or less stable entity (obtains a crown from the pope etc.) and fulfills approximately the same role as Hungary did in OTL how would the different ethnic makeup influence the state's 19th and 20th century history?

A predominantly slavic original population would have probably developed one national identity having lived within one state for about a millenium. Whatever the original regional ethnolinguistic differences might have been the closeness of slavic tongues AND a unified state is likely to have resulted in one nation rather than in a group of ethnicities with centrifugal tendencies- as it was the case with the Hungarian Kingdom.

Romanians would have probably been under a much greater pressure to become slavicized, being surrounded from all sides...of course they have no close romance-speaking neighbours in OTL either, and they haven't assimilated...

So what would result from replacing the ethnic patchwork of Hungary with a more united nation-state? Could this state have freed itself from Austrian rule before WW1? Then again, it would have probably been left undivided after the WW and we would have a large Eastern-European state instead of the 4-5 smaller ones in the area.

obs. I really need to research more about this subject, feel free to point out ASBs, inconsistencies, whatever...
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Hmm, some kind of mixed Slavic- Avar language could appear. As I understand parts of Pannonia was under Slavs who paid tribute to the Franks, and the Bulgarians controlled other parts before the Magyars arrived. And the Bulgarians and Frank- friendly Slavs had together crushed the Avar Khanate, so a decent number of Avars should be left.
 

Zeller

Ethnic oppositions played a great role in quelling the Hungarian revolutions.
In 1848, Hungarian rebels had to fight Croats, Rumanians, Serbs, etc. But I don't know if a united nation could have fought off the imperials AND the vast Russian armies...
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
The Hungarians were on their point of obscurity by the time they had their national revival going on.

Easy way: continue the ottoman-hapsburg wars
 

Deleted member 1487

Weren't the last remnants of the East Germanic (Gepids IIRC) tribes wiped out/absorbed by the Magyars? Perhaps they get Slavicized or remain a distinct group that becomes a vassal to a nearby Slavic kingdom?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The Germans (Bavarians) was moving east into Pannovia at the time. Here they will continue their colonisation of the Hungarian plains, so it more less turn into greater Austria the interesting are where the Slavic population will survive, Slovakia are quite likely, Croatia and Slavonia are a safe bet, likely especially easten Hungary will be full of Vlach and Slavic enclaves.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
wiking said:
Weren't the last remnants of the East Germanic (Gepids IIRC) tribes wiped out/absorbed by the Magyars? Perhaps they get Slavicized or remain a distinct group that becomes a vassal to a nearby Slavic kingdom?
Click to expand...

The ones whom stayed (most joined the Langobard/Lombards) was assimilated by the Avars.
 

abc123

Banned
Well, one thing is sure, if Slavens remain in today's Carpatian basin, then languages of southern Slavs and western Slavs would be much more similar.;)
 

Zeller

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Susano

Banned
Valdemar II said:
The Germans (Bavarians) was moving east into Pannovia at the time. Here they will continue their colonisation of the Hungarian plains, so it more less turn into greater Austria the interesting are where the Slavic population will survive, Slovakia are quite likely, Croatia and Slavonia are a safe bet, likely especially easten Hungary will be full of Vlach and Slavic enclaves.
Click to expand...

The Pannonian March was never really well under Frankish/East Frankish/Bavarian control , but given time control might indeed consolidate, helped along by settlement and christianisation, just like in the East Elbian lands. However, in the East Elbian Lands the Saxons were more or less the only players. Only Pommerania really was contested between them, the Danes and the Poles. However, in the Pannonian Plain you still have Greater Moravia at the very least, and maybe also Croatia, Bulgaria and even the Byzantines. And a new nomad cavalry people like the Pechenegs or the Cumans could enter the plain any time... so its not exactly guaranteed that a German east settlement in the region will have success... but its certainly possible, of course.
 

Susano

Banned
Ringo Starr said:
A Keszthely state can come to exist around Lake Balaton.
Click to expand...

I would imagine that if the Bavarians get any hold in the plain, they will certainly have the Balaton region. The question is wether or not they can hold the Danube as border.
 

Marko

The most obious fact of no Hungarian migration is that Bulgaria remains in control of almost all of todays Romania and much of Panonnian plane. On the other side there would be an emerging Slav principality centred on Balaton which would probably fall under the Bulgarian sphere of influence in the first 1/4 of 10th century as would almost all of the Balkans. With Bulgaria so strong it is doubtful Croatia and Byzantium would be able to resist as they did in our history. No Hungarians could mean in short term a very powerfull Bulgaria in the 10th century before something new hits them from the east. Who know they might even endure that and become the preeminent country in south central Europe
 
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