what if Horatio Nelson is not killed at the battle of Trafalgar
- Thread starter jabberwoky
- Start date
Indeed... But i guess the question here is "Could he be a good politician? Or just a guy who entered the Government because of his battles prestige and only?"
Alec Douglas-Home, 14th Earl of Home, was the last member of the House of Lords to be UK Prime Minister ..... October 1963!
(And it's pronounced Hume, of course)
(And it's pronounced Hume, of course)
No, he was in charge of a fleet, never the whole Navy. As for the circumstances of his death he had a strong streak of fatalism. He also shouldn't have been pacing the quarterdeck of a ship that was involved in a murderous fight against one of the few competently-run French vessels. The Redoutable was commanded was commanded by none Jean-Jacques Etienne Lucas, a very able commander.
No argument about fatalism, but a CO was expected to stand exposed like that in the royal Navy of the time. Apparently, it was partly a reaction to the poor showing commanding officers had given mid-century, and partly being seen to lead. I doubt there was wever a question of Nelson being anywhere else.
A coup in a traditional sense isn't possible but he had the power to cripple trade in England. For an island overly reliant on oversea supplies this would be devastating.
He probably couldn't declare himself dictator but could demand that he given special privilege and wealth. To get the men of his fleet on his side he could demand they be given wealth and land as well.
To get the people on his side he could demand a peace treaty be signed with France. After decades of war, the British people were more upset with war taxes and rationing than they were afraid of Napoleon. Alternatively he could demand universal male suffrage.
At the end of the Battle of Trafalgar Nelson had the strength and influence to upset the balance of power in England. He was also not needed to defend the island nation any longer. So for his own government to kill him eliminates a potential threat but didn't reduce the country's ability to defend itself.
Not a chance. Nelson was an erratic and possibly bipolar person but his overwhelming emotion was love of his country and hatred of the French. If anyone had suggested anything like this Nelson would be the first to call for the Yard Arm. He was a product of his upbringing which means, mostly, the Royal Navy. He seems to have been interested in politics only so far as they affected the Navy.
Personally, considering how careless he was with his life I am amazed he lived to see Trafalgar and remember there is still 10 years of war to come in which he can do something stupid to get himself killed.
Mind you if Nelson is in American Waters in 1812 his prestige will make sure there is a reasonable number and quality of ships, add in his repuation and I suspect the baby US navy will hide in port most of the time
Mind you if Nelson is in American Waters in 1812 his prestige will make sure there is a reasonable number and quality of ships, add in his repuation and I suspect the baby US navy will hide in port most of the time
Unless Nelson has been promoted to a cabinet post by then in order to exploit his war records for the benefit of the Government.
Personally i believe that Nelson was a good navy commander but he would suck in politics especially if he started behaving like commanding a frigate or a fleet... He would make enemies inside his own party...
What's the motivation? Why should a man of his upbringing and class give a shit?
Cook
Banned
I suggest you change your dealer, the one you have at the moment is supplying you with some bad shit.
Cook
Banned
Lucas wasn’t an able commander he was a nutball; when the Redoutable and the Victory locked he pulled in his guns and closed the gunports in the delusional belief that the English would try to board his ship through them. The English simply did what they did best which was blast away at the French ship with their guns until the French struck their colours.
Nelson was an Officer in His Majesty’s Navy; you can’t command a ship of the line by cowering. Such behaviour would have been totally unacceptable.
Well, I didn't say that he was a very good battlefield commander. Perhaps it would have been more accurate for me to say that he was the best of a very bad lot. Which isn't saying much.
As for Nelson on the quarterdeck - I remember reading somewhere that the fighting was so hot at the time that most of the other officers had taken cover, although I might be confusing that with Nelson's order to scatter the marines to minimise casualties. I concede the point however that he had to command - although it might have helped his chances of survival if he hadn't been wearing at least two major decorations on his chest.
I'm not claiming that if he didn't die he would have tried to take over England. I'm just stating two facts that Parliament knew at that time:
1. Nelson was in a position to blackmail his country using the fleet and celebrity status at home.
2. A man of Nelson's talent was no longer essential to protect England's domination of the sea.
He was like a bee flying around in your apartment. It probably won't sting you... but it might. And it definitely isn't going to make you any honey. So you kill it. It's a potential threat if you don't kill it, no benefit if you keep it alive and little effort to put it down.
Therefore, I am suggesting that the government COULD have planted someone on his ship with orders to kill Nelson if the French/Spanish fleet was defeated but the British fleet was still mostly intact. The risks of having him survive far outweighed the benefits he may have in future naval campaigns.
If England (or any other country) thought like this then they would have to execute any General/Admiral after a victorious campaign just for precaution...
Sorry, but this goes against every aspect of Nelson, who was a very, very patriotic man. Why would he have a need to blackmail Britain? And there were fleets in existence that would have been used against him if he'd gone batshit crazy and moved against Britain. I don't even think that his own officers would have followed him if he had.
The other point is that Nelson's crushing victory at Trafalgar was never a dead set certainty - Villeneuve only came out to fight because he'd learnt that he'd been replaced in command of the Combined Fleet. Even after his victory Napoleon still kept buiding ships. Trafalgar was a smashing victory but it still had to be built upon afterwards.
1. Loving one's country is much different from loving one's government. Remember, this was an era when lots of people were overthrowing their own governments in the name of patriotism.
2. How long would it take the other fleets to return home to fight Nelson? Several months at least and they probably wouldn't be in prime fighting condition when they got there.
3. From what I've read about Nelson, he had the unquestioned loyalty and discipline of his men. And they were of the lowest class of British society. In a rebellion they had little to lose and much to gain. Officers who wouldn't go along could be bribed, threatened or replaced.
4. Building ships and building a battle fleet are two different things. Everyone knew that if the French/Spanish fleet were destroyed, it would be a very long time before a naval force that could defeat the British in a standard battle could be constructed.
5. Nelson had the opportunity (whether he had the will is up for debate) to threaten the status quo of British society. Parliament had two options; pray that he didn't or kill him while they had the chance.
Again, I'm not suggesting that Nelson was planning a coup. I'm saying Parliament saw him as much more dangerous than he was useful. I believe that they decided to take a "Better safe than sorry" approach to the situation.
This idea that Nelson was planning to blockade England and parliament assassinated him is really, really nuts. Doesn't fit the character of Nelson, doesn't fit Parliament or British politics, doesn't fit the circumstances of his death, or anything else.
Repeat after me:
I will undergo a moment's reflection before posting this extreme revisionist theory, on pain of being severely mocked.
Repeat after me:
I will undergo a moment's reflection before posting this extreme revisionist theory, on pain of being severely mocked.
Hey we are talking about Nelson here and 19th century UK... Not about some crazy Roman Emperor during the crisis of the 3rd century...
Absolutely not happening...
As i said above if any country thought that way then every victorious General/Admiral would end up dead just in case of thinking to stage a coup/blackmail the Government...
Considering his personality, he could raise hell in the Caribbean. Which could mean a British dominated Central America and Caribbean. He could and up being governor of Jamaica, and it would be interesting to see a colony called Nelson forming part of a British Dominion of Greater Caribbean.