What if HMS Hermes was never converted?

Just as a matter of interest the defence policy from 1966-68 was to run down the carrier force to 1975, from 68-70 it was to dispose of the carrier force by 1972 and in 1970 it was to revive it somewhat by extending the Ark from 1972 to 1978. If any of these decisions was altered it wouldn't be Hermes which survived but Eagle, as she could readily operate the Phantom with a cheap refit and remained in service until 1972 so was available. If Hermes was to survive it would be as a 3rd carrier to back up these big 2, perhaps to get another Buccaneer sqn to sea and loading Ark or Eagle with more Phantoms to defend her.
 

Nick P

Donor
Yeah, sure, depends from the fate of the Through Deck Cruiser. If nothing changes bar Hermes not being a commando carrier, then the Task force sailing to the Falklands is similar to OTL - Ark Royal + Hermes.
Except that Hermes still has it catapults. Sea Vixen are gone, and if Phantoms are too difficult, then pass them to RAF as per OTL. What really matters is to keep a squadron of Buccaneer on board, and mix that with Sea Harrier for air defense. And of course, Gannet AEW, three of them would be enough.

The problem is the Ski Jump. Installed in 1981 to improve Harrier performance, this has the ultimate effect of blocking the bow catapults. The angled flight deck and catapult would still be in use but if that gets fouled you have only one chance to recover the Buccaneer or Gannet on the wire.
You can either make the ski jump liftable by means of hydraulic motors, or restrict the Harrier with a flat rolling take off.

Regarding the Sea Vixens, I thought they had been retired early with plenty of airframe life. I expect the cost of maintaining the aircraft type for just one squadron on one carrier is too much.
 
You don't have to have ski jumps to operate Harriers. The USMC flies Harriers off of the big deck amphibs with no ski jump and occasionally RN Harriers have cross decked to US carriers. These Harriers are operating from the Eisenhower:

 
I notice that article on Wikki says that trackers flew onto Hermes during demonstrations for the RAN. Maybe if she was kept as a conventional carrier the RN might hve got a few trackers for Hermes!
 
I notice that article on Wikki says that trackers flew onto Hermes during demonstrations for the RAN. Maybe if she was kept as a conventional carrier the RN might hve got a few trackers for Hermes!

Trackers used piston engines using high octane avgas, I doubt Hermes had avgas storage by 1970 or so.
 
some trackers were given turbo props and I was think that if the tracker could fit then maybe the "willy fud' tracer version would be a possible as well. The Hawkeye is probably too big?
 
some trackers were given turbo props and I was think that if the tracker could fit then maybe the "willy fud' tracer version would be a possible as well. The Hawkeye is probably too big?

In the 1990's for Taiwan and Argentina.

The TPE331 (T76) Engine by Garrett was first produced in 1963 but i'm not sure at what point it was developed enough to make enough HP to replace the piston engines.
 
The RN had their own perfectly fine 50s fixed wing aircraft, but decided that their version of the heavy ASW helicopter was better, they don't need the Tracker.
 

SsgtC

Banned
some trackers were given turbo props and I was think that if the tracker could fit then maybe the "willy fud' tracer version would be a possible as well. The Hawkeye is probably too big?
It depends on Hermes hanger. The E-2A was originally designed to operate off the Essex class and could lower the radar to fit in the 17'6" hanger of that class. But the A model of the Hawkeye was something less than a success. It was extremely unreliable. When it worked, it worked great. But it didn't work often enough.
 
The angled flight deck and catapult would still be in use but if that gets fouled you have only one chance to recover theBuccaneer or Gannet on the wire.

The CdG has a similar issue, permanently. Once again, having AEW on board (even clunky Gannets that are no E3 by any mean, ok) is well worth the risk.

Keep the ski jump for Harrier and stick with that lone catapult for Gannets. No need for Phantoms or Sea vixens if SHARs with AIM-9L plus Gannet.

Buccaneer are still very tempting, to boost the carrier strike capability; but that ski-jump / catapult interference could be dangerous for heavy and fast jets like them.
Plus the RAF can send his own Harriers for more strike power.

A difficult choice, really !

I would say one Bucc = two Harrier mk.3 as far as firepower goes. Maybe strictly limit Bucc number to 4 or 5, even a few of them add a lot of firepower compared to a Harrier. Plus night strike, all weather, ARM...

In the end probably better to keep that precious catapult for three Gannets AEW and nothing more. They are no fast jets, they can loiter waiting for the Harriers to clear their catapult / landing area, they are few and cause little interference with the ski-jump.
 
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Could you upgrade the equipment on the Sea Vixen to enable it to carry and fire Sparrow? A gun would be nice, but I'm guessing that would be a bridge too far.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Could you upgrade the equipment on the Sea Vixen to enable it to carry and fire Sparrow? A gun would be nice, but I'm guessing that would be a bridge too far.
You could probably do a gun pod similar to what the USAF did with their F-4s. Problem is, it won't be rigid enough for accurate shooting. I mean, it's better than nothing, but it's going to take up a hardpoint and I'm not real sure how many hardpoints the Sea Vixen had
 

Zen9

Banned
So in no particular order.
Sea Vixen. ...Yes upgrades to the AI.18 were available and costed. Mostly moving target indicator function, vastly improving the ability to search and track against clutter. But it comes with some range improvementsas well.

Buccaneer. ..
It's the simplest option to retain Hermes as an additional Strike and ASW only deck and Buccaneers would deliver this. Initial costs are minor but sustainmentis an issue unless there is some other changes.

However keeping the Type 984 would be a major change.

Gannet. ...would be deployed 'up threat' and link back the picture to a terminal in the AIO, either on the CV or the County DDG. Obviously to avoid the worst clutter that would be east of the Falklands.

F4K. ...do-able but so highly restrictive on Hermes as to not be worth it.

F8....do-able if with French standard or better 'blow'. A solution that best belongs to a scenario were the F4K is not chosen at all in favour of the F8.

Jaguar. ....needed a lot more work to turn it into an acceptable naval aircraft. As AN concluded as trials.

Scenario that retains Hermes in CATOBAR configuration has to make sense and imposes some potential changes. Logically this would centre on AEW and the continuing use of Type 984 3D radar.

Any scenario that so retains into the 'future' AEW and Buccaneers is challenging the concept of the Sea Harrier......depending on which aircraft we're talking about. ..
Because the name "Harrier" was first to be used for the P1154 supersonic V/STOL machine, and only after it's cancellation in '65 did they start using it for the P1127.....
 
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