What if HMS Hermes was never converted?

In 1971-73 HMS Hermes underwent conversion to become a "Commando Carrier". This involved stripping her of her steam catapults, arresting cables and Type 984 radar among other things. What if however, the Royal Navy decides to keep Hermes and a traditional CATOBAR carrier? I know the Sea Vixen was more or less near the end of it's lifespan and operating F4K phantoms off of Hermes (though not impossible)was very unfeasible. What would the air group be in this case then?
 
One of my favorite Falklands POD. If Hermes keeps it catapults, then quite inevitably Gannet AEW are taken out of storage... and the air war change beyond recognition. Screw the Phantoms and Buccs, what matters is Harriers guided by Gannett AEW.
 
Buccaneer carried a pair of AIM 9s so could conceivably be used in the CAP role? - so an air group of 4 or 5 Gannets, 20 odd Buccs and 6 Wessex

Perhaps a slightly improved Bucc with Blue fox and increased Air to Air stores (say ability to carry 4 or more Side Winders)
 

Zen9

Banned
Depends on budget
Cheap option is Skyhawks.
Or Etendard.
Or just continue with Buccaneers.l which is probably cheapest up front but more costly to keep going.
Then we go up the cost ladder.
Variants of the F8
Navalised Jaguar.
A7 Crusader
Mirage F1 variants
Mirage G
Then we veer off into never built designs.
 
If the Hermes is never converted she will attempt to use Phantoms just like Ark Royal did from 1970-78, that's the plane the RN had. When talk veers off into the realms of new aircraft then the only new aircraft on the horizon was the Sea Harrier as the only new carrier on the horizon was the Through Deck Cruiser class designed to be the centrepiece of new NATO ASW groups.
 
Yeah, sure, depends from the fate of the Through Deck Cruiser. If nothing changes bar Hermes not being a commando carrier, then the Task force sailing to the Falklands is similar to OTL - Ark Royal + Hermes.
Except that Hermes still has it catapults. Sea Vixen are gone, and if Phantoms are too difficult, then pass them to RAF as per OTL. What really matters is to keep a squadron of Buccaneer on board, and mix that with Sea Harrier for air defense. And of course, Gannet AEW, three of them would be enough.

That's how I saw it.

Two huge advantages for the Task Force
- the Buccaneer is a far, far better bomber than the Sea Harrier or Harrier Mk.3. Anti-radar missiles included, to wreck the radar covering Port Stanley airfield.
- the Sea Harrier is not only free for air defense, BUT can be guided by Gannet AEW.
And this is HUGE bonus: probably 90% of the RN OTL ship damage and losses vanish and gone, because the Skyhawks and Mirages are tracked by Gannets and intercepted far, far away from the fleet. Instead of short-sighted radar -borne ships.
 
Could the Sea Vixen be given a radar upgrade and the ability to work with better missiles?

Ferrari made the radars form the RAF/RN phantoms as far as I understand, the Sea Vixen had a large radome so it may be possible to retrofit the F-4K radar, take out the rockets, add a couple of ADENs and a couple of extra hard points for Sidewinders and fit it for Skyflash.

It's past it's best but as a missile truck with newer avionics it's as more capable than a Sea Harrier as an interceptor, it uses off the shelf parts so in theory ( we know how it will go in practice......) It's a quick upgrade to keep Hermes viable, maybe a conversion of half the Sea Vixen fleet, offer the rest to the RAN after upgrade to work with it's A4s.

This seems more sensible than bringing another aircraft into service as the training and maintenance infrastructure are already in place.
 
I think people have way too much faith in the Gannet AEW3.

It is not an E3 Sentry, it's not even an E2 Hawkeye or E1 Tracer. Its radar has a range of 65mn against fighter sized targets and as such it flew at 3000', providing radar coverage of a circle some 130mn across, which can be superimposed over the islands.

iu


However the APS20 is 40s technology with some bells and whistles from the 50s and 60s, so all of that land will drastically clutter the radar picture and reduce the effectiveness of the Gannet. Further it only has 2 radar operators, so can only track a handful of planes and control 2 interceptions.
 
I think people have way too much faith in the Gannet AEW3. It is not an E3 Sentry, it's not even an E2 Hawkeye or E1 Tracer. Its radar has a range of 65mn against fighter sized targets and as such it flew at 3000', providing radar coverage of a circle some 130mn across, which can be superimposed over the islands. However the APS20 is 40s technology with some bells and whistles from the 50s and 60s, so all of that land will drastically clutter the radar picture and reduce the effectiveness of the Gannet. Further it only has 2 radar operators, so can only track a handful of planes and control 2 interceptions.

On the other hand, the range was such that the Argentine strike aircraft were only likely to come from one direction. If they knew precisely where the British fleet was at any given time, and had the ability to navigate precisely over water in all weather, they could have delivered simultaneous attacks from unexpected directions. But they didn't, they couldn't, and they didn't. The Argentine forces only had a rudimentary early warning system of their own (I learn that their P-2 Neptunes were retired during the conflict, a recce Learjet was shot down, and they ended up using C-130s fitted with makeshift radar, but again one was shot down).

But then again if the Gannets were stationed north-west of the islands they would have become priority targets themselves. Did the Argentine air force have long-range anti-radiation missiles?
 
I think people have way too much faith in the Gannet AEW3.

It is not an E3 Sentry, it's not even an E2 Hawkeye or E1 Tracer. Its radar has a range of 65mn against fighter sized targets and as such it flew at 3000', providing radar coverage of a circle some 130mn across, which can be superimposed over the islands.

iu


However the APS20 is 40s technology with some bells and whistles from the 50s and 60s, so all of that land will drastically clutter the radar picture and reduce the effectiveness of the Gannet. Further it only has 2 radar operators, so can only track a handful of planes and control 2 interceptions.

That Gannet is not a magic bullet but it is a whole lot better than nothing which is what they had OTL.
 
I think people have way too much faith in the Gannet AEW3.

It is not an E3 Sentry, it's not even an E2 Hawkeye or E1 Tracer. Its radar has a range of 65mn against fighter sized targets and as such it flew at 3000', providing radar coverage of a circle some 130mn across, which can be superimposed over the islands.

iu


However the APS20 is 40s technology with some bells and whistles from the 50s and 60s, so all of that land will drastically clutter the radar picture and reduce the effectiveness of the Gannet. Further it only has 2 radar operators, so can only track a handful of planes and control 2 interceptions.

Everything you say is true

However it was a mature system and its fortes and foibles fully understood by its operator - it remained a better option than that presented to the Task force OTL

The Argentine aircraft due to tanking limitations (2 KC-130s) are limited to 4 - 8 aircraft (Skyhawk and Dagger) at most at any one time with the 17 Mirage III not possessing refueling capability and being at the extremes of its range and therefore usefulness

With AEW setup to the West of the island (putting themselves and any CAP between the Island and the mainland ie along the known threat axis) they remove the clutter!

It's not an instant fix by any stretch but it would have been better than what they had.
 
If the Hermes is never converted she will attempt to use Phantoms just like Ark Royal did from 1970-78, that's the plane the RN had. When talk veers off into the realms of new aircraft then the only new aircraft on the horizon was the Sea Harrier as the only new carrier on the horizon was the Through Deck Cruiser class designed to be the centrepiece of new NATO ASW groups.

The Phantom was evaluated for HERMES and deemed unsuitable which is a big reason she was converted to a commando carrier. If they decide to keep her as a CATOBAR carrier they will likely go another route. Either acquire second hand F-8s from the US, extend the life of the Sea Vixens, or decide that Buccaneers and Harriers with Sidewinders are good enough. That last one is probably the best approach once the Niner Lima comes along.
 
681A91DA-7F24-470C-AFB7-9807A8240BD5.jpeg

Victorious, Ark Royal & Hermes.


495A1D6A-C1BD-4354-BC2F-4290869164AA.jpeg

F4 Phantom on Hermes.

Phantoms did fly off both Hermes and Victorious but a more viable alternative for her Vicky & Centaur for that matter was the Jaguar M. Vick could operate 22 fixed wing aircraft & 8 choppers. Hermes was 24 & 6.
 
That Gannet is not a magic bullet but it is a whole lot better than nothing which is what they had OTL.
On the other hand, the range was such that the Argentine strike aircraft were only likely to come from one direction. If they knew precisely where the British fleet was at any given time, and had the ability to navigate precisely over water in all weather, they could have delivered simultaneous attacks from unexpected directions. But they didn't, they couldn't, and they didn't. The Argentine forces only had a rudimentary early warning system of their own (I learn that their P-2 Neptunes were retired during the conflict, a recce Learjet was shot down, and they ended up using C-130s fitted with makeshift radar, but again one was shot down).

But then again if the Gannets were stationed north-west of the islands they would have become priority targets themselves. Did the Argentine air force have long-range anti-radiation missiles?
Everything you say is true

However it was a mature system and its fortes and foibles fully understood by its operator - it remained a better option than that presented to the Task force OTL

The Argentine aircraft due to tanking limitations (2 KC-130s) are limited to 4 - 8 aircraft (Skyhawk and Dagger) at most at any one time with the 17 Mirage III not possessing refueling capability and being at the extremes of its range and therefore usefulness

With AEW setup to the West of the island (putting themselves and any CAP between the Island and the mainland ie along the known threat axis) they remove the clutter!

It's not an instant fix by any stretch but it would have been better than what they had.

True, but I think a lot of people think AEW is all like the E3 Sentry; tracking hundreds of targets even to cruise missile size from hundreds of miles away and controlling dozens of interceptions. In fact what the Gannet AEW3 would do is provide low level radar coverage of a circle 130mn across, which is very handy indeed and likely a game changer but it won't make the Sea Harrier into a Phantom or anything.

The Phantom was evaluated for HERMES and deemed unsuitable which is a big reason she was converted to a commando carrier. If they decide to keep her as a CATOBAR carrier they will likely go another route. Either acquire second hand F-8s from the US, extend the life of the Sea Vixens, or decide that Buccaneers and Harriers with Sidewinders are good enough. That last one is probably the best approach once the Niner Lima comes along.

Any F8 purchased will have to be modified to the French standard in order to operate from Hermes, and even then would be marginal at best around the carrier and not much better than the post-Falklands Sea Harrier.
 
True, but I think a lot of people think AEW is all like the E3 Sentry; tracking hundreds of targets even to cruise missile size from hundreds of miles away and controlling dozens of interceptions. In fact what the Gannet AEW3 would do is provide low level radar coverage of a circle 130mn across, which is very handy indeed and likely a game changer but it won't make the Sea Harrier into a Phantom or anything.



Any F8 purchased will have to be modified to the French standard in order to operate from Hermes, and even then would be marginal at best around the carrier and not much better than the post-Falklands Sea Harrier.

The way I see it, the best approach is for the Sea Vixen to soldier on until the Sea Harrier comes along and then she operates a mixed air group of Sea Harriers and Buccaneers both of which can employ the Niner Lima variant of the Sidewinder and that is probably fine for air-to-air combat from a small carrier.
 
Top