What if Hitler had postponed the execution of the Jews until he had ended the war

I think the point being made is that Hitlers obsessions, risk taking and drive were the factors that brought Germany to war and to its high water mark in 1942. Without those Germany's likely Facist type leader Is probably a Pinochet type figure, with no Nazi party and no WW2 and Hitler making a living as a grumpy Artist.

Hitler's flaws come with the successes and are inseparable from what made him successful earlier in his career.

I don't think CalBear meant "madman" in the clinical sense of a drooling lunatic in a straight jacket suffering from psychosis but that Hitler's worldview and his ideological goal of killing all Jews, Roma and most of the Slavs were crazy/extreme.

After all, Himmler, Goebbels, Heydrich, Bormann, Goering and the rest of the Reich leadership shared the same views since they were true believers as well.

Hitler was mad as a hatter, but he was anything but disorganized. Hitler was driver by his obsessions (actually most people are, to some degree, but Hitler was hyperfocused). If something removed that focus, that obsession, the likelihood is that Hitler never reaches power. The same things that destroyed him were the things that led him to power, that gathered his nasty herd of minions to the Nazi standard, and that gave him the push to throw the dice time after time.

A stable, reasonable leader, the sort who would put his personal desires aside for the good of the overall plan, would never have made the series of remarkable bluffs that led the Reich to the point where it could fight WW II.
Only a Nazi deals in absolutes....




Just joking.Not that I disagree with what your points,but what I am trying to say is that you are all being way too absolute.
 
Except it not just Hitler that we're dealing with. There's lots of other genocidal psychopaths that were quite happy to kill Jews, even just for shits and giggles - and those are just the general footsoldiers. Higher up? Bormann, Goebbels and Himmler to name but three.
 
Contrary to some people who believe that since Adolf was "insane" he would commit to the Holocaust regardless of the circumstances, policies concerning the Jews were subject to massive internal party fighting. If a faction that supported postponing any genocide to after the war had won, then that would have happened.

I'm still surprised at how otherwise educated members of this post miss the simple fact that most of Hitler's policies were the result of what his underlings ironed out as much as what he himself pushed for.
 
Contrary to some people who believe that since Adolf was "insane" he would commit to the Holocaust regardless of the circumstances, policies concerning the Jews were subject to massive internal party fighting. If a faction that supported postponing any genocide to after the war had won, then that would have happened.

I'm still surprised at how otherwise educated members of this post miss the simple fact that most of Hitler's policies were the result of what his underlings ironed out as much as what he himself pushed for.

I do not classify AH as insane. He was a man with a deeply skewed view of the world that today might imply mental illness but then was not that uncommon.
That does not mean I agree with you however. The "cleaning" of the German race was the main objective of the Nazi party and in OTL they several times put that ahead of military, economic or political logic. The programme started long before the war by eliminating disabled people and was widely supported in the party and had very few objectors beyond family members of those affected. As chance made more people vulnerable the programme was expanded until we end up with complete horror.

If the genocide was put on hold then as soon as absolute military necessity allowed (fall of France?) it would all start up again. Of course if the war bogged down then there is no point in putting off the purification since there might not be a later opportunity.

It is hard for us to see the view point of the Nazi in 1939. For us their policy was not just evil, it was counter productive. That is it actively hurt the war effort in many ways.
However for them it was not evil and it was worth the costs, even losing the war.
 
You mean January 1942?

yes typo of mine it's 1942 not 41

Hitler wuz a verrry bbaddd man, m'kay?
Somehow the idea of him holding off the Holocaust on the Jews until the war's over would have been the "sanest" for someone like him; though that would require a blunt brain adjustment.

And the "Annoying little Austrian" was very clever, to get not involve in industrialized mass murder that Reinhard Heydrich organizes after 1942.
There NOT Dokumentation or paperwork were He Approve the action of Reinhard Heydrich like paper of Herman Göring on "The Final Solution"
Although there two incident that show that Hitler was informed that SS commit the Holocaust

On one occasion happen a Diner on Obersalzberg were high rang NSDAP members hat honor to meet Hitler in person
Here one of there Wife's made fatal mistake to ask Hitler about what he think about "The Final Solution"
"Annoying little Austrian" terminate immediate the diner and walk away,

Around 1941 staff meting of Wehrmach High command about Planning of Africa campaign
Himmler ask Hitler what to do with arabs after Jews extermination in Palestine and North Africa
He reply "just like Jews, exterminate them!"

This is only protocol were Hitler actually say it: exterminate them
Not only the Jews, but also the Arabs too !
 
Around 1941 staff meting of Wehrmach High command about Planning of Africa campaign
Himmler ask Hitler what to do with arabs after Jews extermination in Palestine and North Africa
He reply "just like Jews exterminate them!"

I doubt it. Hitler did a lot of planning personally with the Grand Mufti and held him in relatively high regard. It sounds like an expost facto unproven quote of which there are quite a few in WW2 in order to further agendas. The idea that Hitler wanted to exterminate the Arabs was something promoted that furthered British policy, but was it true? His authenticated quotes about the Arabs and meetings with them overall tell me no.

151022100019_haj_amin_al-husseini1_624x351_getty_nocredit.jpg
 
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Why isn't @TheBrazilSpirit answering questions or even commented on what's being said on this thread since starting it. I asked a rational, logical question about the proposal:

When and to whom would Hitler make this proposal 'not to kill Jews until...'?
 
Why isn't @TheBrazilSpirit answering questions or even commented on what's being said on this thread since starting it. I asked a rational, logical question about the proposal:



When and to whom would Hitler make this proposal 'not to kill Jews until...'?

Sorry,was in the work

That would be during the start of the Invasion of Poland and the opening of the Auschwitz KZ camp.And if I am not mistaken, it was Hitler himself who gave the order for the construction of the concentration camps, so he would not need the authorization of anyone
 
I doubt it. Hitler did a lot of planning personally with the Grand Mufti and held him in relatively high regard. It sounds like an expost facto unproven quote of which there are quite a few in WW2 in order to further agendas. The idea that Hitler wanted to exterminate the Arabs was something promoted that furthered British policy, but was it true? His authenticated quotes about the Arabs and meetings with them overall tell me no.

Just like "The Annoying little Austrian" meet with prime minister of Czechoslovakia and Neville Chamberlain or the deal he had with Josef Stalin ?
He Double-cross then and then stab with a dagger in there back, in same he would had done with the Grand Mufti, if Africa campaign had be successful
Fact is the "Gröfaz" has say it and it got on protocol, you can find it in the German Federal Archives in town of Koblenz.
Next to that he demonised Islam and Christianity in "Mein Kampf", as sect of Judaism and they must be annihilated like the Judaism...

P.S
i have enough to use name Hitler in this forum and others
from here on i label him only as: "The Annoying little Austrian" or "Gröfaz"
 
Just like "The Annoying little Austrian" meet with prime minister of Czechoslovakia and Neville Chamberlain or the deal he had with Josef Stalin ?
He Double-cross then and then stab with a dagger in there back, in same he would had done with the Grand Mufti, if Africa campaign had be successful
Fact is the "Gröfaz" has say it and it got on protocol, you can find it in the German Federal Archives in town of Koblenz.
Next to that he demonised Islam and Christianity in "Mein Kampf", as sect of Judaism and they must be annihilated like the Judaism...

P.S
i have enough to use name Hitler in this forum and others
from here on i label him only as: "The Annoying little Austrian" or "Gröfaz"

There is a big line between saying Hitler wanted to liberate the Arabs which he said he did, but not really he wanted to use them against the British to help Italy retake Libya and perhaps gain Egypt and if really lucky further, but there is a leap between that and him planning or thinking about Arab extermination centers and importing Germans to Northern Africa and the Middle East.
 
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Sorry,was in the work

That would be during the start of the Invasion of Poland and the opening of the Auschwitz KZ camp.And if I am not mistaken, it was Hitler himself who gave the order for the construction of the concentration camps, so he would not need the authorization of anyone

So the when is 1939/1940. At this point, Hitler is doing well in the war; why WOULD he postpone executing Jews he didn't know when he had his own cousin killed for being a mental case? He's letting Dr. Joe experiment to his heart's delight on living human beings, he's allowing people to be worked to death, he encouraged open humiliation of Jews - forced them to wear identifying stars, allowed Jewish homes and businesses to looted and destroyed and taken away their citizenship.. why, when he's gratifying all his delusional ideals, would he not do the one foremost in the plan for a perfect Fatherland?
 
Realistically, this is about no formal plan to murder Jews. Hitler would not give a 'do not harm Jews' order, if he did, Nazis would not be reprimanded for not following it.

There would still be ad-hoc killings along the Eastern Front, and there would still be ghettos and concentration camps across Europe. Without the formal plan for murders, the death toll is reduced by two or three million. We'd still call it a genocide, it would still be a genocide.
 
Generalplan OST is going to happen regardless of the Final Solution. GOST was necessary to the logistical problems of the Eastern Front, regardless of whether the Nazi's wanted to implement it anyway.

The Final Solution may have been their original intention or it may have been a pragmatic solution to morale problems (death by bullet eats away at moral more then gas chambers). It doesn't much matter, it happened.

If the Final Solution wasn't implemented, but GOST was, I'm not sure it changes that much. It's not like people were going to draw different conclusions from the whole Nazi experiment if all they did was kill people by the millions with bullets.

The main effect of the various Nazi atrocities was to discredit eugenics and darwinism. This happens even without the Final Solution.

In terms of the Jews, the persecution and executions alone would have similar effects even without the gas chambers.

The Final Solution is a tragedy, but it was merely an acceleration of what they were already doing rather then a qualitative change.
 
It's technically accurate mainly because if the Nazis hadn't acted like Nazis, there would have been no war to start with...

Wasn't a militant culture supposedly growing influence within the government of the Weimar Republic? Not saying they would have been wanting war as the Nazis, but was conflict bound to erupt with Germany whether there were Nazis or not? Can't confirm this, just wondering, and read it somewhere.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
How many resources could this save?Would that have a big effect in the war?

I will skip the plausiblity of the decision. You will free up about 3% or railroad capacity. The Germans don't really have a lot of spare men or equipment AFAIK, but they had enough ammo at home to use. So you would see much supplied Heer units. I can't really quantify how much better the Heer will do with 3% more supplies, but probably the Russian suffering 3% more losses is a reasonable starting point. The troops used at the camps were not elite, not even good. So you get a few division more of garrison quality troops. At the end of the day, my best guess is the war last a few weeks longer than OTL, It is not really a big impact, unless you get a unusual butterflies.
 
It would make sense to postpone orchestrated genocide. Essentially, the Nazi plan for Germany and Post-War Europe were insane. What the average German saw from the rise of Hitler through the War was really conservative compared to what the Nazis wanted to do. It was the gateway drug of keeping everyone fat and happy under totalitarianism that could be handled by the general population. Nazi Europe after the War, short of a normal leader succeeding Hitler, was going to be a continent-wide Khmer Rouge with a total upheaval of all existing society that would have collapsed into a nightmare hellscape. The Holocaust perfectly fits that madness that was coming.
 
Wasn't a militant culture supposedly growing influence within the government of the Weimar Republic? Not saying they would have been wanting war as the Nazis, but was conflict bound to erupt with Germany whether there were Nazis or not? Can't confirm this, just wondering, and read it somewhere.

It's true that even without the Nazis in general and Hitler in particular there'll be a rise of right wing sentiment in Germany and a re-militarization of the country but without Hitler the German leadership won't be nearly so dedicated to starting a war. This is particularly the case since the French and British were willing to make some pretty extreme concessions to Germany in the interests of avoiding another conflict. Virtually any other German leader would have taken Munich as a triumph and cashed in at that point as indeed most inthe Nazi Hierarchy and the Wehrmacht leadership wanted. It's not that other German leaders of the day were peacenicks or anything but none of them were willing to take the gambles Hitler was.

You might get a different war years later, when France, Britain, and the USSR have reformed and rebuilt their militaries, and Germany is on the downswing of disappointment after the early bloom of fascist glories has worn off and does something rash that the Allies now feel strong enough to punish, but by then the odds would be so strongly and obviously against Germany that its unlikely the Wehrmacht would go for it. And even if they did... well, see above.

Germany had a very narrow window in which to act and without Hitler they would they'd have missed it. If the leadership themselves didn't balk, a possible military coup to avoid a hopeless war would have been likely. Even though the belief that wars of conquest are a legitimate way to solve Germany's problem will remain, there will be no one in charge who believes such an action would be likely to be successful like Hitler did.

Antiochus really TL;DR'd it the best:

Hitler's flaws come with the successes and are inseparable from what made him successful earlier in his career.
 
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