What if Hitler Directly Invaded the USSR?

What if after the fall of Poland, Hitler managed to get a peace signed with the French and British before invading the USSR just a few days after Poland fell. Would Germany be able to crush their eastern neighbour with peace on the western front at such an early time? Would the rest of Europe send aid to combat the red menace and if the Soviet Union is overrun by Germany with a possible coalition, how will the world see Hitler? Could he become the greatest man of the century?
 
What if after the fall of Poland, Hitler managed to get a peace signed with the French and British before invading the USSR just a few days after Poland fell.
That's not gonna happen.
Would Germany be able to crush their eastern neighbour with peace on the western front at such an early time? Would the rest of Europe send aid to combat the red menace and if the Soviet Union is overrun by Germany with a possible coalition, how will the world see Hitler? Could he become the greatest man of the century?
Well, he's still Hitler, so even if he manages to beat the USSR, next step will be killing loads of people. So, no, he won't become the greatest man of the century. Maybe the greatest villian (which in general he is viewed as in OTL, but really Stalin and Mao were at about as bad, maybe worse).
 
The main reason it won't happen is the main reason the Germans didn't invade the West in the autumn of 1939. The weather! The plans where delayed and then cancelled due to poor weather. The same would apply to the east as much and more so than the west. IOTL the winter of 39/40 was especially harsh.
 
You would need an earlier pod for this to have any chance of getting started, because IOTL they were really ammunition starved.
The weather was not bad in early fall. Not until december did it turn into the worst winter in a generation, so without having to move from east to West first, it could start (and then run into severe problems).
 
You would need an earlier pod for this to have any chance of getting started, because IOTL they were really ammunition starved.
The weather was not bad in early fall. Not until december did it turn into the worst winter in a generation, so without having to move from east to West first, it could start (and then run into severe problems).
The cold isn’t the only issue with Russian weather. Mud is gonna slow down any advance
 
The Wehrmacht was in no condition to invade anyone immediately after the Invasion of Poland. Poland was one matter; a nation with very few armored divisions and a small and obsolete air force was easy prey to Germany's new tactics. But the German generals needed six months at least to build up their forces enough to take on France, a more industrialized power with decent firepower and defenses, and were terrified that the French would attack them when they were still resupplying ammo and replacing losses. When the French did nothing but build up their defenses just like Hitler said they would, the Germans became more confident in their Fuhrer. Plus, they were still stockpiling resources from the USSR in preparation for the takeover of Western Europe.

Attacking the USSR at that point would have been nothing short of suicide. The USSR of 1941 was in the middle of massive restructuring following the Fall of France (basically, Stalin thought slow trench warfare was the way to go until the German Blitzkrieg proved him wrong, then he tried to rush a complete overhaul, which left the USSR with its pants down when Barbarossa started). In 1939, it would be using outdated tactics, but it would be a lot more organized and even somewhat actually prepared.

Plus, it would be rasputitsa season; Poland fell by mid-September, by which point all Russian roads would basically have turned to mud. As 1941 proved, nothing's worse for an attack than to fight knee-deep in mud and sludge.

So yeah, invading the USSR right after Poland would have shortened WW2 by... 5 years. German gets smashed as it gets bogged down in a war it's even worse prepared for than OTL, potentially Soviets on the Rhine, definitely in control of Warsaw and Berlin.
 
....

Plus, it would be rasputitsa season; Poland fell by mid-September, by which point all Russian roads would basically have turned to mud. As 1941 proved, nothing's worse for an attack than to fight knee-deep in mud and sludge. ....

The actual Rasputitsa is later in Oct-Nov, but all that means is any attack driven deep beyond Poland has long mud roads and flooding streams behind it.
 
So yeah, invading the USSR right after Poland would have shortened WW2 by... 5 years. German gets smashed as it gets bogged down in a war it's even worse prepared for than OTL, potentially Soviets on the Rhine, definitely in control of Warsaw and Berlin.

5 years is probably an overestimate, given that the USSR will have to take time to mobilize and fix it's problems through combat experience while Germany's economy crashes during the course of 1940, but otherwise your largely correct that the Soviets likely prevail in the end. The Red Army probably rolls through Berlin by '41 or '42 at the latest.

The actual Rasputitsa is later in Oct-Nov, but all that means is any attack driven deep beyond Poland has long mud roads and flooding streams behind it.

Honestly, the weather isn't so much the problem here as the massive crimps in German logistics and economics. Compared to Barbarossa, their attacking with vastly less trucks, a weaker rail net, fewer train, less fuel, less supplies, less economic territory to exploit, depleted currency reserves, quickly exhausting stockpiles of critical materials... the list is seemingly endless. The Soviets are also weaker in their own ways, but the German disadvantages are much more crippling given that the onous is for them to attack before the Soviets can mobilize, overcome their problems, and tap out their much greater military-industrial potential.
 
So a German invasion of the USSR immediately after Poland's fall is suicidal. How long would it take for Germany to prepare so that an invasion would be successful and how would British and French aid change things? Maybe even a Japanese invasion of Siberia instead of Pearl Harbour. Note that this is for a TL I plan to do in the far future so any POD that would make France and UK seek white peace after Poland's fall is welcome.
 
I feel like they looted a lot of stuff from France which probably helped Barbarossa (trucks, gold and what not), they'd need to make up a resource deficit whilst keeping forces to counter the Anglo French looking for round 2.
 
I feel like they looted a lot of stuff from France which probably helped Barbarossa (trucks, gold and what not), they'd need to make up a resource deficit whilst keeping forces to counter the Anglo French looking for round 2.

But what if the English and French were actually aiding the Germans battle the Soviets?
 

Ian_W

Banned
But what if the English and French were actually aiding the Germans battle the Soviets?

Gudenstein is on this thread, so you can probably find some implausible excuses to help the Nazis do better. These possibly involve handwaving free extra German food and coal.

But seriously, Alien Space Bats forum is over *that* way. Look at who made up the governments of the UK and France. Then explain why, with Germany attacking past Poland into the USSR, they don't join Stalin in crushing the Nazis.
 
What if after the fall of Poland, Hitler managed to get a peace signed with the French and British before invading the USSR just a few days after Poland fell. Would Germany be able to crush their eastern neighbour with peace on the western front at such an early time? Would the rest of Europe send aid to combat the red menace and if the Soviet Union is overrun by Germany with a possible coalition, how will the world see Hitler? Could he become the greatest man of the century?

But what if the English and French were actually aiding the Germans battle the Soviets?

Thing is you've gone from Britain & France declaring war on Germany (due to German invasion of Poland) to Germany, France and Britain signing a peace with Germany, and then to France and Britain now fighting side by side vs. Russia.

What has Germany said to France and Britain that is so persuasive? It's got to be more than just "look communists"!
 
Not going to happen with Hitler. Neither the French nor the British would ever trust him to make a deal after he blatantly violated Munich.

Better POD: Hitler is assassinated in November 1939, a power struggles ensues in which the generals win out over the Nazi Party apparatus. A committee is formed that realizes the Soviets are bigger threat to the Reich than the Western powers.

They signal to Britain and France that they will withdraw from Poland in exchange for a cease fire in the West and status quo antebellum. Do the British, French and Germans now press Stalin to withdraw from Poland or face war?
 
Thing is you've gone from Britain & France declaring war on Germany (due to German invasion of Poland) to Germany, France and Britain signing a peace with Germany, and then to France and Britain now fighting side by side vs. Russia.

What has Germany said to France and Britain that is so persuasive? It's got to be more than just "look communists"!

Pre 1939 acts by the Soviets cause a greater fear of communism throughout the west, Hitler has a more favourable view amongst the European populace for combatting the red menace and Britain is promised not only Iran but also oil rich lands in the Caucasus and even parts of Central Asia. The French could be pressured by the British into joining the war against the Soviets. Maybe even German promise of aid in case the Japanese attack their Asian colonies.

Not going to happen with Hitler. Neither the French nor the British would ever trust him to make a deal after he blatantly violated Munich.

Better POD: Hitler is assassinated in November 1939, a power struggles ensues in which the generals win out over the Nazi Party apparatus. A committee is formed that realizes the Soviets are bigger threat to the Reich than the Western powers.

They signal to Britain and France that they will withdraw from Poland in exchange for a cease fire in the West and status quo antebellum. Do the British, French and Germans now press Stalin to withdraw from Poland or face war?

What if the Anglo French accept a German retaking of imperial lands in Poland whilst the rest of Poland becomes a German puppet. Let's assume that before the invasion of Poland, Hitler has managed to get a more favourable opinion amongst the West and Stalin has become even more feared than before.
 
Pre 1939 acts by the Soviets cause a greater fear of communism throughout the west,.

Maybe, but Hitler's more recent actions kind of put a bit more context on that. Better to let them fight it out amongst themselves. Either way Britain declared war on Germany with no direct threat from Germany to Britain to worry about, you don't do that unless you have real solid reasons for stopping a country.


Hitler has a more favourable view amongst the European populace for combatting the red menace.

If by populace you mean the general population I think you might be surprised about how ambivalent they might be rather than hard core anti-red. What the populace does remember of course is the great war and what an expansionist Germany might end up like.



and Britain is promised not only Iran but also oil rich lands in the Caucasus and even parts of Central Asia..

Doesn't Britain already have Iran? (Persia). Why would anyone believe German promises for handing over chunks of land it doesn't even control yet? if nothing else one of the core tenants of British european policy has been don't let any one country get too powerful, Greater germany having conquered Poland and the Western USSR would count.

The French could be pressured by the British into joining the war against the Soviets. Maybe even German promise of aid in case the Japanese attack their Asian colonies.
.

What Germany who's going to be fighting the USSR, or do you mean the huge German navy?
 
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What if after the fall of Poland, Hitler managed to get a peace signed with the French and British before invading the USSR just a few days after Poland fell. Would Germany be able to crush their eastern neighbour with peace on the western front at such an early time? Would the rest of Europe send aid to combat the red menace and if the Soviet Union is overrun by Germany with a possible coalition, how will the world see Hitler? Could he become the greatest man of the century?
If I may propose a different POD...

Churchill doesn't become PM. Halifax convinces who ever is PM to sue for peace during or after Dunkirk. Hitler in OTL thought that the UK would eventually sue for peace so this suits his plans. He takes a year to prepare for Operation Barbarossa in 1941.
 
What Germany who's going to be fighting the USSR, or do you mean the huge German navy?

Very valid points, especially this one.
If I may propose a different POD...

Churchill doesn't become PM. Halifax convinces who ever is PM to sue for peace during or after Dunkirk. Hitler in OTL thought that the UK would eventually sue for peace so this suits his plans. He takes a year to prepare for Operation Barbarossa in 1941.

Seems like I cannot avoid a war between Germany and the Anglo French. This seems to be the next best option though.
 
Pre 1939 acts by the Soviets cause a greater fear of communism throughout the west, Hitler has a more favourable view amongst the European populace for combatting the red menace and Britain is promised not only Iran but also oil rich lands in the Caucasus and even parts of Central Asia. The French could be pressured by the British into joining the war against the Soviets. Maybe even German promise of aid in case the Japanese attack their Asian colonies.

What if the Anglo French accept a German retaking of imperial lands in Poland whilst the rest of Poland becomes a German puppet. Let's assume that before the invasion of Poland, Hitler has managed to get a more favourable opinion amongst the West and Stalin has become even more feared than before.

Aid with what? Germany has no ability to deploy its force to the other side of the globe. The breach of Munich Agreement and the invasion of Poland squandered what remaining trust Germany and Hilter had. Why would UK and France believe Hilter would keep the new promise when all the old one was broken?
 
The cold isn’t the only issue with Russian weather. Mud is gonna slow down any advance
True off course, it would be a brief campaign season. I asssumed an objective for the Fall of 1939 would be to annihilate the exposed Soviet army within Poland and then start again when the mud freezes.
Not too fine a plan though.
 
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