What if Henry II had a first marriage?

Yet another Angevin/Plantagenet question!

So the scenario is this:
William Clito lives a bit longer and has a daughter, Sybill, before dying off and Thierry getting the County of Flanders.
Empress Matilda obtains her for her son Henry, securing another potential claim to England & Normandy.
Sybill dies in childbirth giving Henry an heir, William. Henry now marries Eleanor of Aquitaine.

So assuming Henry & Eleanor sprog off as per OTL, what differences do we have in the geopolitics? Who marries whom? Who inherits what?
 
Yet another Angevin/Plantagenet question!

So the scenario is this:
William Clito lives a bit longer and has a daughter, Sybill, before dying off and Thierry getting the County of Flanders.
Empress Matilda obtains her for her son Henry, securing another potential claim to England & Normandy.
Sybill dies in childbirth giving Henry an heir, William. Henry now marries Eleanor of Aquitaine.

So assuming Henry & Eleanor sprog off as per OTL, what differences do we have in the geopolitics? Who marries whom? Who inherits what?

Now that's a major cluster fuck, Eleanor might well want that boy gone no?
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Wouldn't consanguinity be an issue in such a marriage as they are second cousins unless I'm mistaken. I thought the church took that a lot more seriously in the 11th and 12th centuries. And if it did go through and then Eleanore wanted William Jr gone she has the perfect issue to use against him. After all that's how she was able to divorce from Louis since they were third cousins, so she has some experience in those proceedings.
 
When this kind of marriages was annulled the children were almost always recognized as legittimate. I think Eleanor will not try to harm her stepson but she will likely try to persuade him to split the continental lands from England with young William as heir of England and her eldest as heir of Normandy (and her second as heir of her lands)
 
Well she'd want one of her sons on the throne surely?

She didn't try to remove Philippe Augustus to have one of her daughters with Louis Queen though.
Hmmm, if she married off one of her daughters with Louis to William then her daughter would be in perfect position to become Queen of France and England were anything to happen to Philippe :D

Wouldn't consanguinity be an issue in such a marriage as they are second cousins unless I'm mistaken. I thought the church took that a lot more seriously in the 11th and 12th centuries. And if it did go through and then Eleanore wanted William Jr gone she has the perfect issue to use against him. After all that's how she was able to divorce from Louis since they were third cousins, so she has some experience in those proceedings.

When this kind of marriages was annulled the children were almost always recognized as legittimate. I think Eleanor will not try to harm her stepson but she will likely try to persuade him to split the continental lands from England with young William as heir of England and her eldest as heir of Normandy (and her second as heir of her lands)

Consanguinity would be an issue yes. I'd guess it'd go right to the Pope though considering how many there were in this period that might not resolve things if one repudiates the previous.
A split would solve things and a marriage with one of Eleanor's daughters could sweeten the deal. I suspect Henry would be granting some English lands to his sons with Eleanor anyway to invoke obligations between his sons.

Assuming William is crowned co-King as like with Young Henry OTL, would Young Henry be (co)Duke of Normandy and Richard Duke of Aquitaine as OTL? Would Henry still arrange for Geoffrey to marry the Duchess of Brittany? Would John be granted Anjou-Maine-Touraine in toto?
What would relations with Flanders be like? And Champagne & Blois?
 
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She didn't try to remove Philippe Augustus to have one of her daughters with Louis Queen though.
Hmmm, if she married off one of her daughters with Louis to William then her daughter would be in perfect position to become Queen of France and England were anything to happen to Philippe :D





Consanguinity would be an issue yes. I'd guess it'd go right to the Pope though considering how many there were in this period that might not resolve things if one repudiates the previous.
A split would solve things and a marriage with one of Eleanor's daughters could sweeten the deal. I suspect Henry would be granting some English lands to his sons with Eleanor anyway to invoke obligations between his sons.

Assuming William is crowned co-King as like with Young Henry, would Young Henry be (co)Duke of Normandy and Richard Duke of Aquitaine as OTL? Would Henry still arrange for Geoffrey to marry the Duchess of Brittany? Would John be granted Anjou-Maine-Touraine in toto?
What would relations with Flanders be like? And Champagne & Blois?

Young Henry wouldn't be crowned co-King,you only make one of your sons co-king(the point of making a co-King is to clarify the succession,not to muddle it by making two brothers King of the same kingdom).As for lands like Normandy,I don't think it would be granted to young Henry.Anjou maybe,but I don't think Normandy,since a lot of nobles from England still owned land in Normandy.

Eleanor didn't remove Philippe Augustus because she simply didn't have the means to do so.The rest of the nobility might not respect the rights of her daughters as well.Chances are that they will elect another Capet male as King.
 
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Young Henry wouldn't be crowned co-King,you only make one of your sons co-king(the point of making a co-King is to clarify the succession,not to muddle it by making two brothers King of the same kingdom).As for lands like Normandy,I don't think it would be granted to young Henry.Anjou maybe,but I don't think Normandy,since a lot of nobles from England still owned land in Normandy.

Eleanor didn't remove Philippe Augustus because she simply didn't have the means to do so.The rest of the nobility might not respect the rights of her daughters as well.Chances are that they will elect another Capet male as King.

I meant as Young Henry was OTL not jointly - so I've edited to make that clearer.

My comments re Eleanor were to make clear I don't think she will go all Cersei on William. Yes she will improve things as much as possible for her own offspring but I doubt she'll be calling the assassins out as soon as she marries Henry.
 
I meant as Young Henry was OTL not jointly - so I've edited to make that clearer.

My comments re Eleanor were to make clear I don't think she will go all Cersei on William. Yes she will improve things as much as possible for her own offspring but I doubt she'll be calling the assassins out as soon as she marries Henry.

Though further on down the line if William proves to be unwilling to listen?
 
Though further on down the line if William proves to be unwilling to listen?

He locks her up like Henry II did and gives concessions to his halfbrothers. I'm sure Philippe II would be highly supportive of any reduction to English royal interference in France
 
He locks her up like Henry II did and gives concessions to his halfbrothers. I'm sure Philippe II would be highly supportive of any reduction to English royal interference in France

Only he can not do it. The only thing who William can do to Eleanor is sending her back in her own lands aka the Duchy of Aquitaine (something Eleanor will be quite willing to do on her own).

With Henry II dead and his son as the new English King, Eleanor and her children will be seen much more as very powerful French high nobility than English royals specially if Eleanor's children had all lands in France while William is the King of England
 
Only he can not do it. The only thing who William can do to Eleanor is sending her back in her own lands aka the Duchy of Aquitaine (something Eleanor will be quite willing to do on her own).

With Henry II dead and his son as the new English King, Eleanor and her children will be seen much more as very powerful French high nobility than English royals specially if Eleanor's children had all lands in France while William is the King of England

Ok.

What's your view on how Henry II deals with Flanders? Things were very precarious there for a while and the later Phillip of Flanders had to hew a close French line for a while.
 
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