What-If - Greater Finland

What-If an ATL present day Finland included all of Sapmi / Lappland (plus Finnmark, Kola and Torne Valley), Estonia as well as Russian Karelia (East Karelia, Ingria, etc)?

How would such a country compare economically and elsewhere with other countries in Europe particularly in nearby Scandinavia both separately as well as politically united, the latter basically being a screwed ATL version of political Scandinavism (formed out of Denmark along with a territorially reduced Norway and Sweden)?
 
Politics depend much how this Greater Finland has born. But in best case such Finland would be economically very good shape when it would have more forests abnd mines. It would has too Arctic resources.
 
Hard to say without knowing how it was created. Best chance for a pre-1900 POD is something with a strong Swedish Empire and/or Scandinavia with cultural movements in the Finnic-speaking territories that result in the lands gaining independence together.

If you want all of Ingria (to join Finland and Estonia), it'll have to be before St. Petersburg is founded. And it's just too inviting for any Russian state that wants a Baltic coastline (and that will always be a major desire for Russia if Russia is denied the Baltic). Keep Russia disunited maybe?

If we want to extrapolate modern economics into this situation, it would be at least as strong as modern Sweden both population-wise and economically. The mines in Kuola will prove very productive and useful for the state. It could serve as a counterbalance to a united Scandinavia, probably allied with a united Germany, although it would be at a disadvantage in terms of demographics.
 
I am curious as to when you would propose Finland become an independent state. It was in a bit of a precarious position being in between Sweden and the Russian Empire.

Even though the demographics would be a limitation I would also have to agree that Finland would be quite strong economically. One concern that I have is that Finland was primarily agrarian up until roughly the 1950's. An earlier industrialization would make things interesting...
 
Hard to say without knowing how it was created. Best chance for a pre-1900 POD is something with a strong Swedish Empire and/or Scandinavia with cultural movements in the Finnic-speaking territories that result in the lands gaining independence together.

If you want all of Ingria (to join Finland and Estonia), it'll have to be before St. Petersburg is founded. And it's just too inviting for any Russian state that wants a Baltic coastline (and that will always be a major desire for Russia if Russia is denied the Baltic). Keep Russia disunited maybe?

If we want to extrapolate modern economics into this situation, it would be at least as strong as modern Sweden both population-wise and economically. The mines in Kuola will prove very productive and useful for the state. It could serve as a counterbalance to a united Scandinavia, probably allied with a united Germany, although it would be at a disadvantage in terms of demographics.

Cannot say how such an ATL Finland would be formed other then the notion of the Baltic Finnic and Sami peoples being united under a one nation, ideally it would be before St. Petersburg is founded with an ATL Russian state instead managing to gain a Baltic coastline at the expense of Lithuania plus rump Latvia.
 
Cannot say how such an ATL Finland would be formed other then the notion of the Baltic Finnic and Sami peoples being united under a one nation, ideally it would be before St. Petersburg is founded with an ATL Russian state instead managing to gain a Baltic coastline at the expense of Lithuania plus rump Latvia.

So Ivan the Terrible wins the Livonian preferably early on, assuming this prevents conflict between Ivan and his heir Ivan Ivanovich. That also means no Time of Troubles, No Romanovs or Peter the Great. How that leads a larger Finland is another question, Novgorod and subsequently, Russia had held on to Karelia for at least several centuries before Ivan the Terrible.
 
So Ivan the Terrible wins the Livonian preferably early on, assuming this prevents conflict between Ivan and his heir Ivan Ivanovich. That also means no Time of Troubles, No Romanovs or Peter the Great. How that leads a larger Finland is another question, Novgorod and subsequently, Russia had held on to Karelia for at least several centuries before Ivan the Terrible.
There is a possibility that a victory in the Livonian War would just delay an argument between Ivan and his son. However, Ivan did die almost three years after his son. Prevent Ivan from reacting to how his pregnant daughter-in-law was dressed then it would most likely be smooth sailing.
 
Make the Finns wake up and unite before the Swedes arrive... maybe a conversion to Christianity would have helped.
Then a slow campaign northwards into Lapponia and Karelia...
 
If I recall correctly, the Swedes arrived in the area if Finland during the Northern Crusades and began to not only exert their authority but spread Christianity.

Another possibility that came to mind was during the dissolution of the Kalmar Union in 1523. Maybe Finland could try for independence during that time?
 
This is a rather out there thought of mine I've had for a while (since as a Finnish American any Finnwank is automatically cool to me), but what if the Finns had domesticated the moose? It doesn't have to be the ancestors of the Finns as we know them, it could be the Karelians or the ancestors of the Baltic Finns. Moose are difficult to deal with (according to Soviet accounts of moose farming), but with a forest environment like in the region the Baltic Finns called home, domesticated moose could thrive under concentrated human management. This could take place early on in the 1st millennium AD, right when the modern Finns had finished moving to Finland.

Moose could be useful for farming as well as being far more suited for the climate than cattle ever could be. They would exceed cattle in terms of everything but milk I'm pretty sure. Moose cavalry is a bit out there, but I could imagine that any Finnic noble would ride a moose into battle. I don't know if moose have the same frightening effect on horses that camels did, though.

Something exotic like that could be the key to creating a greater Finland in the Middle Ages, when OTL there really wasn't much there. A successful Finnish ruler (or dynasty) could probably prevent the divergence of an Estonian identity from a Finnish one. Although the main issue is still that a Greater Finland would be wedged between more powerful states, so Lithuania is probably the best comparison to what I envision.
 
While not a moose cavalry, the hakkapeliitta were used by the Swedes during the Thirty Years War and in some conflicts with Denmark in the 1650's. They were particularly effective and quite brutal when attacking. An earlier utilization may be of some help.

I can't comment too much about moose though. A Canadian friend of mine told me that they can be quite aggressive and hurt more people than bear or wolves. Also, a collision with one in a car is particularly devastating as well.
 
Finnish cavalry were pretty legendary, yes. But it was a united Finland under Swedish rule that utilised them to the full potential. We need a Finn to do the same with as minimal Swedish/Scandinavian or Russian influence as possible.

More realistically, I've been thinking moose would be like war elephants in Southeast Asia--a sign of prestige, great to have in the field (either warfare or agriculture), but otherwise a bit of a novelty.
 
Moose are very difficult to domesticate because of their diet. The russians have been trying for at least a century and have only made some progress quite recently. Moose get much of their calories from twigs and bark, but important nutrition comes from foraging for berries, grasses, and even carrion, which makes them expensive and difficult to care for properly. Moose antlers are impressive and majestic, and probably useful to a certain extent in combat. They're an energy sink though, and will sometimes be a liability. Horse have other advantages, even if even the moose domestication is started 2000 years ago the horse will still be more tame. Horse are also faster than moose in most terrain.

I suspect moose domestication to a certain extent is entirely possible with an early enough POD, but it won't be an especially important factor. They'll likely be an impressive steed for kings and generals, a point of pride and prominent in rituals, displays, and parades, and perhaps add some reliability and diversity to their owners diets.

A POD 1000 years ago won't have much of an effect, and a POD 10000 years ago will alter the world to the extent that greater finland won't have meaning.

I think a POD around the mongol conquests, perhaps raising Novgorod for some reason or another, could give a greater Sweden, an entirely catholic scandinavian peninsula and ingria, and then with the rise of nationalism or some other division of the Swedish empire a great Finland.
 
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