What if Goering assassinated in 1939?

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Deleted member 1487

There was any number of assassination plots against Hitler, but what if Goering fell in one in 1939 before the invasion of Poland? What would that mean for Hitler and general 3rd Reich politics?
 
Someone more competent takes over the luffwaffe maybe and air war over Europe is tougher or a bigger yes man for Hitler moves up the Nazi food chain and the Germans still screw up.
 
The OP is the best man to answer the question, but it has several interesting effects.

1. Less crazy Hitler...he's afraid of being offed and it emboldens resistance. Hitler cannot just take control of army groups as quickly as OTL.
2. No miracle at Dunkirk, as Goering's replacement is simply not going to make the same call. This means possible British capitulation, though more likely it just delays Britain and makes them do worse in Africa (as trained men will have to be shipped home for defense, and Hitler will still probably go ahead with the BoB.)
3. Someone more sane might put a stop (or at least encourage stopping) the BoB when it was clear that it was not working. But, this is not a given.
4. PODs with weapons development, probably positive.
5. Crete still happens, but it is less bad because of PODs from Dunkirk. Fallshirmjaeger probably are relevant until the beginning of 1943.
 

Deleted member 1487

Someone more competent takes over the luffwaffe maybe and air war over Europe is tougher or a bigger yes man for Hitler moves up the Nazi food chain and the Germans still screw up.


The OP is the best man to answer the question, but it has several interesting effects.

1. Less crazy Hitler...he's afraid of being offed and it emboldens resistance. Hitler cannot just take control of army groups as quickly as OTL.
2. No miracle at Dunkirk, as Goering's replacement is simply not going to make the same call. This means possible British capitulation, though more likely it just delays Britain and makes them do worse in Africa (as trained men will have to be shipped home for defense, and Hitler will still probably go ahead with the BoB.)
3. Someone more sane might put a stop (or at least encourage stopping) the BoB when it was clear that it was not working. But, this is not a given.
4. PODs with weapons development, probably positive.
5. Crete still happens, but it is less bad because of PODs from Dunkirk. Fallshirmjaeger probably are relevant until the beginning of 1943.

I can say without qualification that Milch takes over the RLM and Luftwaffe, effectively just replacing Goering entirely, which is basically only positive for the Luftwaffe, as Udet is canned and Jeschonnek is probably reassigned. Not sure who is CoS would be then, maybe Hilberg, but I doubt Milch wants the political issues stemming from appointing a half-Jewish officer to that role despite his extreme competence and skill, given that Milch had a Jewish father.

I think Todt would get the 4 Year Plan and end up making Speer's ministry but more encompassing and in 1939 instead of 1942.

And a minor point of order: the Fallschirmjager was highly strategically relevant IOTL until the end of 1943; they were used to grab the Italian general staff/capital and prevent Italy from fully flipping sides, which was HUGELY important and dragged out the Italian campaign far longer. They were also THE decisive factor in the Aegean campaign after the surrender of the Italian garrisons; they could move the quickest and managed to defeat the British with much heavier losses. They nearly killed Tito in 1944 which would have been helpful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rösselsprung_(1944)#Aftermath

They also did an operation in France that was highly successful in crushing some French resistance group, while also ineffectually being used during the Battle of the Bulge.


Goering's death is unqualifiedly good for the German war effort, but its a question of what effect that has on Hitler's paranoia and who does the deed; it would probably be easier to get a crazy person, German communist, or just an anti-Nazi German rather than a member of a resistance org do it. Regardless there is a massive investigation and whomever is linked to the act suffers badly; Hitler also loses his named successor. Goering's death is probably worse than Heydrich's to Hitler.
 

Cmyers1980

Banned
The OP is the best man to answer the question, but it has several interesting effects.

1. Less crazy Hitler...he's afraid of being offed and it emboldens resistance. Hitler cannot just take control of army groups as quickly as OTL.
2. No miracle at Dunkirk, as Goering's replacement is simply not going to make the same call. This means possible British capitulation, though more likely it just delays Britain and makes them do worse in Africa (as trained men will have to be shipped home for defense, and Hitler will still probably go ahead with the BoB.)
3. Someone more sane might put a stop (or at least encourage stopping) the BoB when it was clear that it was not working. But, this is not a given.
4. PODs with weapons development, probably positive.
5. Crete still happens, but it is less bad because of PODs from Dunkirk. Fallshirmjaeger probably are relevant until the beginning of 1943.

Pretty much this. Though I would emphasize point 4. Without Goering the Luftwaffe would be much better off. Certain aircraft would be built and put into service earlier and in larger numbers while other aircraft that ended up being wastes wouldn't be built or at least wouldn't be built at the detriment of the promising aircraft.

Also there would be one less person in Hitler's inner circle who would go along with every insane idea he had.
 

Deleted member 1487

Pretty much this. Though I would emphasize point 4. Without Goering the Luftwaffe would be much better off. Certain aircraft would be built and put into service earlier and in larger numbers while other aircraft that ended up being wastes wouldn't be built or at least wouldn't be built at the detriment of the promising aircraft.

Also there would be one less person in Hitler's inner circle who would go along with every insane idea he had.
Milch would kill the Ju288 before it even happened and probably not sabotage the Jumo 222; I doubt he'd tolerate the dive bombing He177 or Udet for that matter. He'd probably take down Messerschmitt as soon as possible too, so no Me210 fiasco. There might be other things like not requiring the Do217 to dive. Milch is going to have a lot of enemies though and won't be shielded by Goering (Raeder and a lot of career military men hated the civilian Milch).
 
the best person would have been Fritz Todt to fill all the roles Goering had, LW, economy, etc.

he was technically part of LW at one point? and a decorated pilot so not so farfetched to assume that role?

who else is there? Hess? thought he was uniformly considered crazy early on?
 

Deleted member 1487

the best person would have been Fritz Todt to fill all the roles Goering had, LW, economy, etc.

he was technically part of LW at one point? and a decorated pilot so not so farfetched to assume that role?

who else is there? Hess? thought he was uniformly considered crazy early on?
No, he would not have been good for the LW. He had no military standing for that role either. Speer left the RLM/LW alone when he was in charge of the economy and let Milch handle things; Milch was the best guy to handle production and development, maybe not the best commander option, but better than what was there IOTL. Hess was a useful fool, not particularly respected by anyone in the party and chose for his loyalty to Hitler and lack of ambition.
 
Concur that Milch would be highly likely to get the position but I see him being a bit worried about how long he can keep it. Whereas HG had his bombastic delusions and boasts Milch could perhaps go too far in the opposite direction and be overly cautious.

Some positives

He is likely to try to mend fences with Raeder by giving the KM some aircraft of its own

No LW field divisions, no HG Panzer Division

He is highly likely to strangle Sea Lion in the crib (which also helps him with Raeder) Instead you would see a long term air campaign designed to weaken the UK with a majority of sorties at night
 

Deleted member 1487

Concur that Milch would be highly likely to get the position but I see him being a bit worried about how long he can keep it. Whereas HG had his bombastic delusions and boasts Milch could perhaps go too far in the opposite direction and be overly cautious.
In what areas though? He'd boost production and pretty much follow OTL strategy up through France, but wouldn't overpromise on Dunkirk nor be all that sanguine on the BoB. I think Beppo Schmid wouldn't be the head of intelligence, which solves a lot of issues there, but am not sure who would replace him and do that much better of a job that was acceptable by Milch.

Some positives

He is likely to try to mend fences with Raeder by giving the KM some aircraft of its own
I thought he and Raeder were pretty bitter enemies.

No LW field divisions, no HG Panzer Division

He is highly likely to strangle Sea Lion in the crib (which also helps him with Raeder) Instead you would see a long term air campaign designed to weaken the UK with a majority of sorties at night
Agreed. I'd add he wouldn't promote people based on combat performance, rather he'd likely do it on competence, so we don't get Galland or potentially Molders as inspectors or even Gruppen commanders.
 
You do what you gotta do

I thought he and Raeder were pretty bitter enemies.
/QUOTE]

So were Hitler and Stalin.

I would see Milch giving just enough aircraft to temporarily appease Raeder so the admiral is not leading the parade to have him sacked. If Milch at some point feels more secure in his position he will go back to denying the KM aircraft.
 
Without Goering making grandiose promises, ... that LW could .... Brits would have suffered heavier casualties at Dunkirk ... Battle of Britain would not have dragged out as long as it did ... but the biggest difference would have been fewer paratroopers.
Without Goering promising to capture Crete, LW would have lost far fewer transport airplanes ... and might have been able to fulfill Goering's promise to re-supply Stalingrad.

Sadly, Hitler's paranoid management style lead to the creation of 3 distinct field armies by 1944: Whermacht, Waffen SS and Fallschirmjagers. 3 distinct armies all competing for the same bullets, beans and bayonets coming off a limited number of production lines.

Lack of transport airplanes prevented FJs jumping into battle after Crete, but FJ stiffened defenses in Russia, Italy and Normandy. FJ proved especially stubborn defenders as WALLIES neared Ortona and Monte Casino.
After Crete, few FJ recruits learned how to jump.
Late in the war FJ ranks were supplemented by LW field troops and AAA. Often those LW field troops were simply LW ground crew who had no more airplanes to repair ... they had limited weapons and limited tactical training and were thrown into battle as Nazi Germany ran out of manpower.
 

Deleted member 1487

Dunno about Goerring and Goebbels specifically, but Seigel was definitely an anti-Nazi before it was popular.
I'm sure being Jewish didn't make him their demographic.

Actually it would be a highly interesting POD. Having both very high ranking Nazis murdered in Italy by a Jewish-American gangster would fulfill the POD and open up interesting political consequences with Italy, especially if Siegel is not caught/identified as the culprit. Plus he'd get huge street credit at home if it ever came out.
 
Without Göring's wild promises the BoB simply won't happen. Thatvsaves thousands of planes and hundreds of pilots for other campaigns. It might even be enough to give the Germans a level of aircraft superiority similar to your "Three Fish" TL, wiking. :cool:
 

Deleted member 1487

Without Göring's wild promises the BoB simply won't happen. Thatvsaves thousands of planes and hundreds of pilots for other campaigns. It might even be enough to give the Germans a level of aircraft superiority similar to your "Three Fish" TL, wiking. :cool:
Probably not quite that good, but if they went to the Blitz right away, but focused on ports and such they'd suffer a lot less losses and do more damage.
 
The OP is the best man to answer the question, but it has several interesting effects.

1. Less crazy Hitler...he's afraid of being offed and it emboldens resistance. Hitler cannot just take control of army groups as quickly as OTL.

2. No miracle at Dunkirk, as Goering's replacement is simply not going to make the same call. This means possible British capitulation, though more likely it just delays Britain and makes them do worse in Africa (as trained men will have to be shipped home for defense, and Hitler will still probably go ahead with the BoB.)

Or more crazy Hitler because he's afraid of being offed and he starts purging people?

Dunkirk. Tricky one this. What was the sequence of orders? AIUI, Rundstedt halts the Panzers and then Goering pops up and says he can deal with the pocket. So would no Goering influence Runstedt's decision? I don't see it, he's thinking about turning south to defeat France. It seems more likely things wouldn't differ much from OTL.
 
Probably not quite that good, but if they went to the Blitz right away, but focused on ports and such they'd suffer a lot less losses and do more damage.

Wouldn't that require foresight though? There is no experience with a strategic air campaign yet, they don't know what works and what doesn't. Is there any precedent of the Luftwaffe looking into a night-only bombing campaign specifically? And wasn't the decision to bomb cities a political decision made by Hitler?
 

Deleted member 1487

Wouldn't that require foresight though? There is no experience with a strategic air campaign yet, they don't know what works and what doesn't. Is there any precedent of the Luftwaffe looking into a night-only bombing campaign specifically? And wasn't the decision to bomb cities a political decision made by Hitler?
This was basically what the pre-war wargaming for war with Britain returned as the most effective strategy and the one that the LW intelligence department was pushing before, during, and after the BoB. So its not like I came up with this, in fact I stumbled on to it during my research for a TL. They developed specialized night bombing forces pre-war and developed night bombing aids too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams#Background
 
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