What if Germany won WW1 after overwhelming the French Army in the 1918 spring offensive

Grey Wolf

Donor
France knocked out of the war IS victory. If the breakthrough sees the BEF flee to the coast, the French abandon Paris, that IS victory. France will be as open as it was in 1940. The Americans aren't going to be landing troops in bridgeheads that can be reduced. It won't even be a relevant question. France will sue for peace, and to save its army Britain will too. America's influence perhaps means that the terms are not so bad, but it's not going to fight a war on its own
 
France knocked out of the war IS victory. If the breakthrough sees the BEF flee to the coast, the French abandon Paris, that IS victory. France will be as open as it was in 1940. The Americans aren't going to be landing troops in bridgeheads that can be reduced. It won't even be a relevant question. France will sue for peace, and to save its army Britain will too. America's influence perhaps means that the terms are not so bad, but it's not going to fight a war on its own
Okay, and hypothetically speaking. They bust through the Allied lines and, by some miracle, take Paris. Say France doesn't surrender because they're getting food aid, financial support, and now, hundreds of thousands of US soldiers, while, Germany is starving, on the brink of revolution, and their armies depleted. What then? France just up and surrenders? Because they lost Paris?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Okay, and hypothetically speaking. They bust through the Allied lines and, by some miracle, take Paris. Say France doesn't surrender because they're getting food aid, financial support, and now, hundreds of thousands of US soldiers, while, Germany is starving, on the brink of revolution, and their armies depleted. What then? France just up and surrenders? Because they lost Paris?

Wow, that's a very odd way to look at a war
 

marathag

Banned
America's influence perhaps means that the terms are not so bad, but it's not going to fight a war on its own
You underestimate the amount of hatred towards the Germans that had been unleashed. Even if the French drop, why would the Brith and US drop? Italy is still in the Game, and things were dire on the Austrian Front, being past the defeat of the Piave River campaign, and Diaz was not the idiot thst was his predecessor, wasting men on the Isonzo.
Germans can't reinforce soon enough, and with enough menn to prevent collapse of the Austrian Army in what's now Slovenia.
 
Hmm.

Assume the Germans roll all sixes, drive the BEF into the Channel and take Paris...

Do they win?

I look at the resolution in the East. Russia largely collapsed by fall 1917. First the Empire, then the Provisional Republic both fell. THere was mass desertion from the army. But there was still a significant party opposed to submitting to Germany, even among then Bolsheviks. The actual German victory (Brest-Litovsk) didn't come until March 1918.

This was in part to the German tendency to demand a lot to start with and then escalate their demands as their position got stronger. There would be a similar pattern in the West, I think. But there would be one great difference: the presence of British and especially American troops in France. The British would be present even if driven out of Flanders and Picardy: the BEF could reenter France via Le Havre, Rouen, or Cherbourg. The AEF was already substantial, and would grow rapidly, even as the Germans tried to force France to surrender.
 
You underestimate the amount of hatred towards the Germans that had been unleashed. Even if the French drop, why would the Brith and US drop? Italy is still in the Game, and things were dire on the Austrian Front, being past the defeat of the Piave River campaign, and Diaz was not the idiot thst was his predecessor, wasting men on the Isonzo.
Germans can't reinforce soon enough, and with enough menn to prevent collapse of the Austrian Army in what's now Slovenia.

The Austrians didn't collapse until late October 1918. I can't imagine they would collapse earlier than OTL. It was a grinder for a few days before they did collapse. There is no reason a few German divisions could not be in reserve here where the are not heavily committed in a 100 days defense. Even if there was a collapse the Germans could easily hold the Brenner pass.

if we go with the Wiking theory on France being fragile and France leaving the war there really is no path to victory. There is just too few divisions.
@Catspoke
Agree to disagree on what the French would accept in 1918. Remember the peace crowd was quite strong despite the repressive measures Clemenceau had taken against the left and it actually required pulling divisions out of the line prior to Kaiserschlacht to help put them down. With Paris gone the will to continue to fight and suffer is going to be pretty minimal, especially if the Brits have had to pull out of the continent to avoid being encircled and destroyed in Flanders.
Italy is probably going to cut a deal considering the enormous impact of Paris falling. There really isn't hope of winning the war at that point without a LOT more bloodshed and years of fighting. Plus Germany will be stripping France of it's food to prop itself up. They really won't be in a position to resist even a bad peace and certainly won't be fighting to preserve Belgium.

However, If France stays in, minus the industrial regions of the North West, I could see the Allies holding up in the Breton peninsula and at Cherbourg and the Mountains of Southern France. Its a long war to Berlin in 1919 though. Lots of time for negotiation over the Winter of 1918-1919. it will be an 1971 peace for France, crappy but not the end of France.
 
The Austrians didn't collapse until late October 1918.
They didn't collapse until then, but the Second Battle of the Paive in June shattered their moral and all but completely wiped out their engineering corps. The fate of the Italian front really hinges on if 2nd Piave happens, and, if so, if it happens like OTL.
 

Deleted member 1487

"Victory" how? Paris? The entirety of France? Because that's what it'll take for a German victory, and they lacked the logistics, or manpower for either.
Paris at least. Why do you think it would require the entirety of France? Without Paris and the resources of the northeast of France the French couldn't continue to fight on. Since they also supplied the AEF with most of their heavy equipment in 1918 that means the US is SOL in terms of putting an army in the field even if they hold the Atlantic ports. Britain wouldn't be in a position to help for a while either, as the play laid out by Zabecki would collapse their logistics and force an abandonment of most of their heavy equipment and force a withdrawal from the continent for a time. If anything the Allies would be begging for terms. If not then if Germany can peel off at least the French by offering lenient terms (relatively) to get them to tell the Allies to get out or else. At that point German demands weren't huge in France other than some border strips and colonial demands, plus military restrictions (specifically border forts) and a free hand in Belgium and Eastern Europe.

However, If France stays in, minus the industrial regions of the North West, I could see the Allies holding up in the Breton peninsula and at Cherbourg and the Mountains of Southern France. Its a long war to Berlin in 1919 though. Lots of time for negotiation over the Winter of 1918-1919. it will be an 1971 peace for France, crappy but not the end of France.
Not in 1919 without French industry, weapons, and manpower. Considering the severe concern of the collapse of civilization in Europe and more communist uprisings I doubt they'd want to fight for years more at inestimable cost to maybe potentially win. Plus they would have likely overestimated German abilities to resist at that point given just how badly they'd have been beaten in 1918.
At this point to the French were on the downswing in terms of replacements and the British questioned the willingness to keep fighting even before Michael had burned itself out. The bluster of Foch aside, things were not looking book in March 1918:
 

Riain

Banned
Germany still had armies in the field in November 1918, but Ludy knew that they couldn't stop the allies so he sued for peace. This is what will happen to France, they will see that their armies are broken and their next step is revolution and something akin to how the Germany and Austrian advanced against no opposition in Russia by simply taking the train. In order to avoid this they will sue for peace, and demand that Britain and the US leave France and shut off domestic services for them like ports, rail etc. until they do.

For their part the US and British won't have enough divisions to remain in France and keep fighting, in any case the British are likely to have copped a hiding in the field and have their backs to the sea as well as the French demand that they leave. In addition the Germans now have the Pas De Calais so will set up long range guns to shell Dover port and stop through channel shipping which was a major part of Britain's domestic transport task until the 30s. Britain will happily give up fighting in order to avoid a siege/blockade far more deadly than the one they had just endured given they have no chance of beating Germany.

The US will be left with its dick out, a big Army in the field abandoned by its allies having to backload it hoe, they will become ultra isolationist.
 
Honestly even a status quo peace in the west would be a major German victory as they have won in the east. Also using the east as a example Of how Germany operate run into one major difference; France isn’t Russia. Russia was before WWI called the ”the prison of nations”, France was on the other hand a national state, there was not really a lot of cake pierces to cut off from France, maybe they get a weird idea of establishing independent Brittany and Corsica, but honestly I don’t think that’s realistic. I suspect that Germany will go with some minor changes in Europe, some transfer of colonies and some kind of reparations. Germany also don’t need to carve France up to break France. With the Russian border moved far east and the establishment of buffer states in Eastern Europe, France lack the alliance network to threaten Germany in similar manner again.

Fundamemetal it made strategic sense for Germany to carve as much as they could get away with out of Russia, it doesn’t really make the same sense to do the same to France.

Of course that’s just my analysis, people have done stupid things before.
 
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a
I did a massive story based on this, the Eleventh Hour series. It ended up with Kissinger a captain in the Imperial German Navy on a nuclear sub I think
Do you happen to have a link for this series, I for the life of me can't find it.
 
You underestimate the amount of hatred towards the Germans that had been unleashed. Even if the French drop, why would the Brith and US drop? Italy is still in the Game, and things were dire on the Austrian Front, being past the defeat of the Piave River campaign, and Diaz was not the idiot thst was his predecessor, wasting men on the Isonzo.
Germans can't reinforce soon enough, and with enough menn to prevent collapse of the Austrian Army in what's now Slovenia.

Why not?
With France out of the war, Germany has ample forces with which to reinforce A/H. If the Italians are dumb enough to attack (perhaps even if not) then think "Caporetto II".

Italy, along with Salonika of course, would look attractive as a new front. Unless France had truly capitulated, would a CP collapse at Vittorio Veneto not open the road to Innsbruck, leaving Vienna and even Bavaria vulnerable to an offensive backed with substantial British and American forces?

What American forces?

The AEF came to France with little more than the clothes they were wearing, relying largely on the French to equip them. So with France knocked out, they are effectively disarmed. Italy can't supply them as France did. Indeed, with a French surrender they will be hard put just to get out of France (presumably to UK) before being taken prisoner themselves.

FTM , the BEF will have had to destroy 90% of its equipment after abandoning Flanders, and may well have had to do a Dunkirk. In time, no doubt this can be sorted out, but that will be far too late to do Italy any good.

BTW the majority of Entente forces at Salonika were French, so have presumably been withdrawn or surrendered under the terms of the Franco-German armistice.
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Grey Wolf

Donor
a

Do you happen to have a link for this series, I for the life of me can't find it.

Hi, I don't think I named the series in the original posting thread. Therefore, this link to one of the later threads (I split them by decades) links back


The Restless Twenties is the first part, leading on to the others listed. After Satan's Children, it continued up into the 1970s I think

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

marathag

Banned
The AEF came to France with little more than the clothes they were wearing, relying largely on the French to equip them. So with France knocked out, they are effectively disarmed. Italy can't supply them as France did. Indeed, with a French surrender they will be hard put just to get out of France (presumably to UK) before being taken prisoner themselves
October 1918 is not June 1917 as far as US Production goes. Italy(or France, FTM) does not need to supply them. US factories had been ramping up for the past year.
The BEF and AEF can stay Belgium and North France. The Germans do no have the ability to knock them off the continent

Italy surrendering did not magically make the Germans leave in 1943, did it?

All in all, France is not Russia

And as I pointed out, German Troops were not Teleported from Russia to do that Michael Offensive, that took months before large number of German troops could be moved from the first Ceasefire, to Treaty(that required another German attack), and with the BEF and AEF consolidating in North France and Belgium, Germany just can't move enough of those those troops, soon enough, to make any difference in Italy.

Austria is still doomed, no matter what happened in France
Their Piave Valley campaign was a disaster in June, this would not change, even with the German getting lucky in April in France
adding Germans won't help in the Piave, it wasn't the lack of troops that was the problem, the problem is that the Italians were defending differently than before.
The Austrians tried to follow the tactics that the Germans had done well with in Michael.
They failed dramatically in Italy. Austrian forces cracked, much like what happened to the Russians in 1917 with the Kerensky Offensive.
 

Deleted member 1487

October 1918 is not June 1917 as far as US Production goes. Italy(or France, FTM) does not need to supply them. US factories had been ramping up for the past year.
The BEF and AEF can stay Belgium and North France. The Germans do no have the ability to knock them off the continent
No, but October 1918 is not March 1918 nor is it 1919. The US factories were not set up to make airplanes, tanks, and artillery, so were still just being developed.

Italy surrendering did not magically make the Germans leave in 1943, did it?

All in all, France is not Russia
As you say Italy is not France. Italy was already utterly dependent on Germany and easily disarmed, plus a lot of their military ended up siding with Germany over the Allies anyway and continued fighting on their side to the bitter end.
 
October 1918 is not June 1917 as far as US Production goes. Italy(or France, FTM) does not need to supply them. US factories had been ramping up for the past year

Where does October 1918 come into it? If the 1918 offensives succeed at all, it will be in the Spring of 1918. Even by July it would be far too late as OTL showed.

As for the Austrians, they may not even do the Piave offensive. More sensible to await the fall of France (which can't be long delayed after the Paris region - which contained the bulk of their war industries - has been lost) and then attack with massive German support against an enemy who know by now that the war is lost.
 
Their Piave Valley campaign was a disaster in June, this would not change, even with the German getting lucky in April in France
Depends how liberal you want to be with the butterflies, Michael working is contingent on different thinking in the planning of the operation. Ludendorff thinking differently could well change the plan for the Austrian summer offensive, as he was given some input into it before it was finalized.

And getting the plan to be different shouldn't be too hard given the stupidity that was the planning process. Conrad intended to do a narrow front advance from the North down to Asiago (surprise surprise that obsession was still strong), and von Straußenburg wanted a narrow front advance from the Northwest towards Bormio, Boroević however wanted a broad front assault along the length of the lower Piave. When asked to pick one the Emperor said "why not all three?" Perhaps a little nudge from Ludendorff could get von Straußenburg to put his foot down and say "I am the chief of staff, you two are my subordinates" or get Karl to pick one (as he was supposed to). But that's splitting hairs.

adding Germans won't help in the Piave, it wasn't the lack of troops that was the problem,
So the fact that the Italians outnumbered the Austrians (both locally in the areas of the advance and along the entire front) wasn't a factor? Removing the French divisions alone would be sufficient to shift the balance back to parity, adding German divisions shifts the advantage to the Austro-Germans. Just saying.

the problem is that the Italians were defending differently than before.
The plan failed at the strategic level not the tactical level. The Austrians wouldn't have inflicted 75% as many casualties as they endured (despite their completely infeasible plan) had Diaz's change in tactics actually invalidated the Austro-German infiltration tactics.

Austrian forces cracked, much like what happened to the Russians in 1917 with the Kerensky Offensive.
Splitting hairs again, the Kerensky offensive failed because the Russian army was already past its breaking point in moral and offensive capabilities. The Austro-Hungarian Army however was brought to its breaking point by the failure of the operation. 2nd Piave basically kicked them off their post-Caporetto high.
 

Riain

Banned
A pertinent fact given WW1 was an artillery war; no US built artillery piece was fired in anger in France in WW1. The US had an array of modern, American-designed artillery in low rate production in 1917 but upon entering WW1 it was decided to drop these and license build British and French artillery pieces and equip the AEF with British and French produced artillery until these weapons were ready.

When the German spring offensive causes France to sue for peace the AEF isn't getting guns or ammo to continue the fight, when France is out so to is the AEF.
 
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