what if Germany had not declared war on USA
- Thread starter Desert Fox
- Start date
I'm not saying they'd help America, I'm saying a gesture of help. It stops the minor problem of American aid to Britain and lands Roosevelt in the shit. Remember Hitler rather admired Stalin, had mixed feelings about Churchill, but hated and despised Roosevelt.
And as for the Japanese being allies- I'm quoting from memory here:
Ribbentrop: After the war I must get together all the treaties we've broken.
Hitler: And I'll give you a golden box to keep them in.
And as for the Japanese being allies- I'm quoting from memory here:
Ribbentrop: After the war I must get together all the treaties we've broken.
Hitler: And I'll give you a golden box to keep them in.
Valamyr
Banned
I was refered to a bi-partisan, united laughter of everyone who still has a good head on his shoulders.
I think your submarine would be sunk in harbor. At best, US troops would storm it, capture the crew, and use the materials.
Germany may not have been formally at war, but de-facto, and German vessel in the western half of the Atlantic was to be seized and its crew interned by order of the Chief of Naval Operations, March 1941.
US public opinion was nearing the point where it would have accepted a US DoW on Germany.
Furthermore, im pretty confident that if Roosevelt had stretched it, and included Germany in his Pearl Harbor speech to ask in a single bill a DoW against both countries, if necessary threatening to veto a DoW against Japan only, it would have passed through with a substantial majority.
I think your submarine would be sunk in harbor. At best, US troops would storm it, capture the crew, and use the materials.
Germany may not have been formally at war, but de-facto, and German vessel in the western half of the Atlantic was to be seized and its crew interned by order of the Chief of Naval Operations, March 1941.
US public opinion was nearing the point where it would have accepted a US DoW on Germany.
Furthermore, im pretty confident that if Roosevelt had stretched it, and included Germany in his Pearl Harbor speech to ask in a single bill a DoW against both countries, if necessary threatening to veto a DoW against Japan only, it would have passed through with a substantial majority.
Well, I've just knocked back nine pints of Marston's Pedigree, but-to take a rather obvious sourse, Shirer- "My own impression in Washington at that moment was that it might be difficult for President Roosevelt to get Congress to declare war on Germany. There seemed to be a strong feeling in both Houses as well as in the Army and Navy that the country ought to concentrate its efforts on defeating Japan and not take on the additional burden of fighting Germany at the same time."
To be brutal, your thing about is "bi-partisan, united laughter" is meaningless.
I'm fascinated to learn that "German vessel in the western half of the Atlantic was to be seized and its crew interned by order of the Chief of Naval Operations, March 1941." Could you tell us some more about this?
To be brutal, your thing about is "bi-partisan, united laughter" is meaningless.
I'm fascinated to learn that "German vessel in the western half of the Atlantic was to be seized and its crew interned by order of the Chief of Naval Operations, March 1941." Could you tell us some more about this?
Valamyr
Banned
Prunesquallor said:
I'm all for brutality, I think you vastly underestimate to what extent the US was deeply involved against Germany in 1940 and 1941.
Prunesquallor said:
Sure, and while I'm at it, I'll review the various US belligerent acts prior to the war.
September 8 1939. Roosevelt proclaims limited state of emergency in US. US warns Germany that it does not see the invasion of Poland as a legitimate act of self-defense.
September 13, 1939. Chief of Naval Operations' order: Mothballed WWI destroyers to be reconditioned for "neutrality patrol".
October 16, 1939. Ranger (CV-4) and San Francisco (CA-38) are mobilized to locate and trail German tanker departed Tampico, Mexico, for Admiral Graf Spee. British Admiralty is informed of findings, so that Royal Navy units may sink the vessel.
October 20 1939. Chief of Naval Operations' order: USN to begin using plain language radio reporting of all contacts with German vessels, to allow the British to monitor these findings without officially compromising neutrality.
November 4 1939 . Cash & Carry amendment to Neutrality Act allowed US to supply munitions to Allies.
May 3 1940. Greenland, a crown colony of Denmark, seeks U.S. protection, so that Danish sovereignty can be maintained during the German occupation of the homeland. Allied forces immediately allowed limited access to bases there.
August 27 1940. Compulsory military service established (the draft).
September 3 1940. US trades UK 50 destroyers from US reserve fleet for leases on bases. These destroyers come at a turning point, and are critical to the protection of British conveys in the battle of the Atlantic.
*** LULL in provocations for the US Presidential election. Roosevelt re-elected under the platform of "Keeping the US out of foreign wars". ***
November 16 1940. U.S. Destroyer DD-223, on neutrality patrol off Tampico, Mexico, radios attempt of German freighter Orinoco to make for European waters. U.S. Destroyer DD-431, by her presence, thwarts German tanker Phrygia's bid for freedom; Phrygia's crew scuttles her.
December 8, 1940. Destroyer Sturtevant (DD-240) stands by while British light cruiser HMS Diomede intercepts German freighter Idarwald. Sturtevant sends congratulatory message to Diomede in plain for the interception.
December 11, 1940. German freighter Rhein, having been tailed by U.S. destroyer Simpson (DD-221) and, later, MacLeish (DD-220), is intercepted by Dutch destroyer leader Van Kinsbergen near the Florida Straits, and is scuttled by her own crew to avoid capture. MacLeish and McCormick (DD-223) are present as the German ship's bid to escape fails.
December, 1940. US extends "neutral zone" to 300 nautic miles, allowing her naval forces to act against German vessels if necessary in a much larger area.
Now the juicy stuff...
March 1, 1941. "Support Force Atlantic Fleet" established for protection of convoys in North Atlantic. In effect, US naval units are followed to engage and fire on any U-Boats they encounter in their patrols.
March 11, 1941. US votes Lend-Lease Act to aid England. Famous "Neighbors house on fire" speech from FDR.
March 27, 1941. ABC Conference. This is the real point of no return, imo. Atlantic Fleet is to help the Royal Navy convoy ships across the Atlantic, and engage Axis naval forces throughout their zones. The agreement inextricably links the U.S. Navy in the effort against Germany.
March 28, 1941. Following the ABC Conference, the Chief of Naval Operations orders the seizure of any Axis vessel in the Western half of the Atlantic. Crews to remain interned until the end of war, and were actually denied PoW status until the German declaration of war.
March 30, 1941. In accordance with rescent orders, the U.S. seize all Axis vessels currently in it's ports. Mussolini orders Supermarina to seize U.S. vessels in the Mediteranean, but no such scenario occurs before December.
April 10 1941. FDR authorizes the transfer of 10 "Lake"-class Coast Guard cutters to the Royal Navy. Transfers completed Apr 30-May 30.
April 18 1941. US declares Greenland and Iceland in its sphere of interest.
April 24 1941. Neutrality Patrol is extended east to 26°W, Iceland, and 20°S, almost to Rio. At this point, the Kriegsmarine can no longer wage an effective naval war without constantly encountering US naval units.
April 26. 1941. US begins to supply French North Africa.
May 22, 1941. Part of the U.S. pacific fleet ordered to the Atlantic.
May 24, 1941. USN PBYs from Newfoundland search for Bismarck in the Atlantic and ignores the boundaries of the "Neutrality Zone", under orders to "immediately report all findings to the British Admiralty".
May 26, 1941. USN observers flying two separate RAF Catalinas sight Bismarck. British fleet units immediately converge on the lone German capital ship.
May 27, 1941. Roosevelt proclaims unlimited state of emergency, including unlimited delivery of sensitive and military supplies to Britain, using as pretext a possible incursion of the Bismark into the western Atlantic.
May 27, 1941. More elements of the U.S. Pacific fleet move to Atlantic patrol.
May 29, 1941. US extends "Neutrality Patrols" further into North, Central and Southern Atlantic.
June 12, 1941. Naval reserves called to active duty. Threats cited are entirely Euro-centric.
June 14, 1941. U.S. freezes all German and Italian assets, closes German and Italian consulates.
June 16, 1941. FDR sends internal memo informing Naval Operations to be ready for full-war within a year.
June 20, 1941. FDR addresses Congress concerning the German sinking of U.S. freighter Robin Moor. References to the fact he will use the full-might of America to protect it's naval forces.
June 28, 1941. Crackdown on Germany's "6th column" in the US. The rights of Pro-Nazi groups are severely restricted. German espionage rings in the US are destroyed in a massive sweep.
This is possible because a naturalized U.S. citizen, who was threaten with blackmail to become a radio operator for the Abwehr. He told the FBI and became a double agent, sending large quantities of approved information. He was considered so valuable in Germany that he was put in contact with all German agents in the U.S.
July 4, 1941. US marines under US air cover arrives in Iceland, and relieve the entire guarrison of British troops in Iceland, to allow them to move for duty elsewhere. US setup permanant air bases in Iceland.
August 1st, 1941. US-USSR accords signed. Lend-lease extended to the Soviets. Iceland enters "Neutrality Zone".
August 9th, 1941. Atlantic Charter. FDR meets WSC. FDR pledges all effort to enter the war shortly, promises "Germany-first" strategy and peace efforts towards Japan. US warships to extend further boundaries of escorts. U.S. Air cover to be provided to British conveys where technically possible.
August 16th, 1941. New US air cover patrol spots and attacks by itself a U-boat that had surfaced, and that was not immediately threatening any US or British interests.
September 4th, 1941. US Destroyer DD-145 tracks for hours and exchange fire with the German U-652.
September 10th, 1941. LIBERATOR class US Bombers arrive in England. First US-only base in English soil established. Some in Congress protests, FDR replies they are deployed there for defensive purposes. (Heavy bombers. For defensive purposes. Gotta love that guy.)
September 11th, 1941. On national radio, FDR announces to the US public that US naval forces have been battling the Kriegsmarine, and gives first casualty figures. He announces gives the famous unrestricted "Shoot on sight" order to all US land, air, and naval forces that comes into contact with Axis forces.
(This is tantamount to a declaration of war, and it is under this that I say your "friendly" German Submarine entering New-York would have been sunk immediately.)
Some begin calling for FDR's impeachement, but the movement is no more credible than say, the various "Impeach Bush" movements we've seen since late 2001. Some say this effectively marked the transfer of the right to declare war from the US Congress to the US Presidents.
Sep 12 1941. Coast Guard cutters seize trawler Buskoe in Mackenzie Bay, Greenland, thwarting an attempt to establish German radio weather stations.
Oct 5 1941. Naval Conference between US and British commanders in Sinapore. Cooperation against Japan in a case of war is discussed, but time is also spent discussing the credibility of reports of sightings of U-boats in the Indian Ocean, and to discuss the Germany First Strategy.
Oct 16-Nov 1 1941. DDs escorting Atlantic convoy make depth charge attacks daily after six merchant ships sunk in five hours. US carriers join patrol and escort duties.
Nov 3 1941. PBYs and PBMs providing air coverage for convoy ON 31 sink another U-boat.
Nov 4 1941. Omaha (CL-4), Memphis (CL-13) and 3 DDs search for a German surface raider with orders to engage and destroy.
Nov 6 1941. Omaha (CL-4) and Somers (DD-381), en route to Recife, Brazil, returning from the 3,023-mile patrol, captures German blockade runner Odenwald, disguised as U.S. freighter Willmoto, in Atlantic equatorial waters. Crew granted PoW status although no state of war exists.
Nov 10 1941. United States convoys UK soldiers in their own ships. Transports more than 20,000 British troops, in six USN ships sailed from Halifax for the Far East. BB-41, New Mexico, escorts.
Nov 11 1941. Lend Lease extended for de Gaulle's Free French. US changes stance on Vichy's colonies to consider them "occupied territory".
Nov 11 1941. Chief of Naval Operations issues a directive blurring greatly the relevance of "Security Zone" lines. De-facto, US naval forces begin operating everywhere in the Atlantic, with no regard for this line.
Nov 13 1941. FDR amends Neutrality Act: All US ships to be armed, and to enter war zones freely.
Nov 17 1941. Archer (BAVG-1) is the first of 38 escort carriers transferred to the UK during the war under Lend-Lease program. Both U.K. and U.S. planes and pilots operate off it's deck.
Nov 25 1941. U.S. troops deployed to Dutch Guiana to protect bauxite mines.
December 3, 1941. The White House announces that Turkey has "for sometime" been receiving lend lease aid. It is later discovered that Lend-Lease has started after German invasion of Greece and Yugoslavia, to keep Turkey out of the Axis side.
This non-comprehensive lists focuses on U.S belligerent acts towards the Axis forces, and not the opposite. The details of incidents such as the Athenia, the Wacosta, the Zamzam, the Robin Moor, the Steel Seafarer, the Lehigh, the Oiler Salinas, the Reuben James, the DuPont, the Astral or the Sagadahoc, being initiated by Germany or mere consequences of an increasingly agressive US stance, are not mentioned exhaustively.
It goes without saying that there WERE German provocations of the USA during this period, and that many of them prompted the US replies seen above, though in general, the escalation happened on the US side. The decisions of the Axis to attack and destroy all US naval forces bound for great britain in January 1941 followed an unreasonable extension of the neutrality perimeter for exemple, and the freeze of diplomatic relations decreted by Berlin in June 1941 was brought about by U.S. the freeze of assets.
So, do you still think we can make Germany and the USA all fuzzy-buddy buddy-fuzzy by changing German stance on Japan?
EDIT: Edited to put focus on the most important parts.
IMO, anyone whod have suggested seriously to stop all these efforts against Germany and leave Britain to its fate would have been laughed out of the White House.
Youd really need to impeach FDR or make him lose the November 1940 elections to avoid US-german war.
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"So Morgenthau and Wallace were responsible for the delay in accepting the Italian surrender? News to me. One of the best kept secrets of the war, so secret it doesn't turn up in the standard histories."
Perhaps the Italians deserve a good bit of blame, but those two didn't help matters by demanding war to the knife when the opportunity to deprive the Great Enemy (Hitler) of an ally arose.
Perhaps the Italians deserve a good bit of blame, but those two didn't help matters by demanding war to the knife when the opportunity to deprive the Great Enemy (Hitler) of an ally arose.
Valamyr- I think you still don't get it. You can make enormous lists of American activities in the Atlantic and it still doesn't matter a sparrow's fart. To Hitler, the war in Russia was the crucial issue, the Atlantic merely an annoying distraction. Which is why he showed, for him, remarkable restraint when faced with what he saw as gross provocation. And your list- when examined, much of it simply doesn't bear the weight you place on it. Take your "Atlantic Charter...Roosevelt pledges all effort to enter the war shortly." But he didn't. As Gilbert puts it in vol 6 of his Churchill biography: "But on the wider issue of the United States' entry into the war, it was clear throughout the talks that the United States had no intention of making any commitment , or of holding out even the remotest hope of one." Or you have Roosevelt ordering on September 11th shoot on sight if any German forces are encountered. That would be a declaration of war. What Roosevelt actually said was: "From now on if German or Italian war vessels enter the waters, the protection of which is necessary for American defence, they do so at their own peril." A rather different thing. From what website did you pick up all this stuff?
Let's see. You say that a German submarine openly entering a US port, its arrival announced in advance, carrying military aid for America, would have been sunk on sight. What planet are you from?
And I didn't suggest that America and Germany would become "fuzzy buddy" if Germany changed its stance on Japan. I merely remarked that Roosevelt would not have been able to secure a declaration of war. As he had indicated previously to the British Ambassador, Halifax, he could not declare war unless Germant did so first.
Roosevelt's foreign policy. Aiming for war, as you obviously think? With someone as opaque as Roosevelt, it's difficult to know, but I'd tend to agree with Gerhard Weinberg in A WORLD AT ARMS that until the very end he believed it was possible that Hitler could be defeated without direct American intervention. As Weinberg points out, from April 1941 the US had access to the broken enigma codes. Had he been aiming for a casus belli, Roosevelt could easily have ensured that American ships head towards u boat concentrations.
And you say that anyone who opposed aid to Britain would have been laughed at. Let's see, Germany has promised all help short of war to America. Well, Senator Pittman of Nevada, the one who suggested that Britain should surrender and the British, Royal Family and all, should move to Canada, had died the previous year, but that still leaves us (for starters) people like Lindbergh, Coughlin, McCormick, Charles Beard, Taft, Robert Wood, the LaFollettes, Nye, Wheeler, Hearst, Norman Thomas, and 800,000 odd America Firsters. How do you think they would have reacted?
Let's see. You say that a German submarine openly entering a US port, its arrival announced in advance, carrying military aid for America, would have been sunk on sight. What planet are you from?
And I didn't suggest that America and Germany would become "fuzzy buddy" if Germany changed its stance on Japan. I merely remarked that Roosevelt would not have been able to secure a declaration of war. As he had indicated previously to the British Ambassador, Halifax, he could not declare war unless Germant did so first.
Roosevelt's foreign policy. Aiming for war, as you obviously think? With someone as opaque as Roosevelt, it's difficult to know, but I'd tend to agree with Gerhard Weinberg in A WORLD AT ARMS that until the very end he believed it was possible that Hitler could be defeated without direct American intervention. As Weinberg points out, from April 1941 the US had access to the broken enigma codes. Had he been aiming for a casus belli, Roosevelt could easily have ensured that American ships head towards u boat concentrations.
And you say that anyone who opposed aid to Britain would have been laughed at. Let's see, Germany has promised all help short of war to America. Well, Senator Pittman of Nevada, the one who suggested that Britain should surrender and the British, Royal Family and all, should move to Canada, had died the previous year, but that still leaves us (for starters) people like Lindbergh, Coughlin, McCormick, Charles Beard, Taft, Robert Wood, the LaFollettes, Nye, Wheeler, Hearst, Norman Thomas, and 800,000 odd America Firsters. How do you think they would have reacted?
Valamyr
Banned
Hey, you're the one who asked me for clarifications, which I gave. In details, you'll admit.
If you still disagree with my conclusions, fine with me! We can't debate this endlessly. I just don't buy your scenario for reasons I've already explained.
I was hoping my list would show clearly that the US and the Germans were way past the point where they could become allies, or even tolerate each other. They were at war, far before Dec 12 1941. And you dont just send military tech to your enemy, and you just dont accept military tech from your enemy.
As for America first, just look at what happened in OTL.
If you still disagree with my conclusions, fine with me! We can't debate this endlessly. I just don't buy your scenario for reasons I've already explained.
I was hoping my list would show clearly that the US and the Germans were way past the point where they could become allies, or even tolerate each other. They were at war, far before Dec 12 1941. And you dont just send military tech to your enemy, and you just dont accept military tech from your enemy.
As for America first, just look at what happened in OTL.
Valamyr- you haven't clarified, you've deluged us with factoids, some slanted.
But to sum up my position-
1. Hitler declares war. Hitler discounted America as a power. All this niggling stuff about convoys were of little importance to him. What mattered to him in the second half of 1941? Mid July, the Minsk encirclement, taking nearly 300,000 prisoners, late September, Kiev surrenders and 665,000 Russians go into the bag, early October, Vyazma, another 650,000 prisoners. Do you think if some aide had come up to him and said: "Dreadful news, mein fuhrer, the US Coastguard has seized the trawler ,Buscoe, in Mackenzie Bay, Greenland, thus thwarting our attempt to set up a weather station!" He would have turned, and said, "someone get this imbecile a job organising troop entertainments. No that's too important, do we have a military attache in San Marino?" At the time of Pearl Harbour Hitler was faced with a Russian offensive which might have led to the destruction of Army Group Centre and the collapse of the Eastern front. I think, to a large extent, he declared war just to get back to more important matters. But he hesitated. He would have preferred not to see Japan becoming the dominant power in Asia, the old "Yellow Peril", he would have preferred to see India and the rest still in the hands of the European powers. The decision could have gone either way.
2.American reaction to German declaration of a sympathetic neutrality. You say that "the US and the Germans were way past the point where they could become allies, or even tolerate each other." I'm afraid this is naive, thinking in monoliths. "the Germans", here, simply means "Hitler." It was his decision and he could have decided differently. "The US" is meaningless. The US (in a political sense) is a mass of interacting power and interest groups. Roosevelt (despite the hysteria of his enemies) was no dictator. If Hitler had remained silent (let alone made sympathetic noises), Roosevelt could never have secured a declaration of war. Let's see now- you've got the anti-communists who see Hitler as a bulwark against communism (especially with the new Russian successes before Moscow), you've got the old style liberal isolationists who see war as merely a banker and industrialist's ploy to increase their profits, you've got the military types who can't see any sense in adding another opponent when you're having difficulty coping with just one, you've got the extreme right who think Hitler's got some good ideas, you've got sections of the German-Americans and the Catholic Church, you've got the Anglophobes and anti-imperialists who object to propping up the British Empire, you've got the businessmen who think war with Germany bad for trade, you've got the people who think Britain has lost and it's no favour to encourage the country to fight on instead of seeking the best possible terms, you've got the sceptics who see no chance of shipping an enormous army to Britain and then mounting an invasion of Europe, you have those who see the Pacific as America's future and the Atlantic as the past, you have sympathisers with China who feel it's the Japanese who are the enemy, you've got the Roosevelt haters who feel there must be something to be said for anyone who is against Roosevelt, you have the pacifists who see war as morally wrong and only leading to the militarisation of America. Still, here's pronouncements from various senators- Taft (Ohio): "The President confuses the defense of Britain with the defense of the United States". Wheeler (Montana): involvement in Europe "would plow under every fourth American boy." Clark (Idaho): aid to Britain would lead "the American people into war and ruin." Capper (Kansas): "There is no reason why we should not have peaceful relations with the world if we cease playing the role of international Meddlesome Mattie." Remember, the Draft Act was only renewed in the summer of 1941 by 203 votes to 202. In this climate, under the conditions I've given, do you really believe Roosevelt could have got a majority for war?
One last point. I've always found it curious, when this topic was raised, the frenzied opposition to the idea that the US might not have entered the war in Europe. I've always regaded it myself as one of the few crucial decisions which could have gone either way, yet many AH types get quite worked up. I suspect it's caused by several factors, those who believe in "the crusade in Europe" and won't accept that it might never have happened, those who believe in the duplicity of the New Dealers and that they were bound to get into the war, those who don't like the idea of the US's actions being governed by a foreigner's decision. Do you know, I'd be quite willing to bet that a majority of Americans still believe that America declared war on Germany rather than the other way around.
But to sum up my position-
1. Hitler declares war. Hitler discounted America as a power. All this niggling stuff about convoys were of little importance to him. What mattered to him in the second half of 1941? Mid July, the Minsk encirclement, taking nearly 300,000 prisoners, late September, Kiev surrenders and 665,000 Russians go into the bag, early October, Vyazma, another 650,000 prisoners. Do you think if some aide had come up to him and said: "Dreadful news, mein fuhrer, the US Coastguard has seized the trawler ,Buscoe, in Mackenzie Bay, Greenland, thus thwarting our attempt to set up a weather station!" He would have turned, and said, "someone get this imbecile a job organising troop entertainments. No that's too important, do we have a military attache in San Marino?" At the time of Pearl Harbour Hitler was faced with a Russian offensive which might have led to the destruction of Army Group Centre and the collapse of the Eastern front. I think, to a large extent, he declared war just to get back to more important matters. But he hesitated. He would have preferred not to see Japan becoming the dominant power in Asia, the old "Yellow Peril", he would have preferred to see India and the rest still in the hands of the European powers. The decision could have gone either way.
2.American reaction to German declaration of a sympathetic neutrality. You say that "the US and the Germans were way past the point where they could become allies, or even tolerate each other." I'm afraid this is naive, thinking in monoliths. "the Germans", here, simply means "Hitler." It was his decision and he could have decided differently. "The US" is meaningless. The US (in a political sense) is a mass of interacting power and interest groups. Roosevelt (despite the hysteria of his enemies) was no dictator. If Hitler had remained silent (let alone made sympathetic noises), Roosevelt could never have secured a declaration of war. Let's see now- you've got the anti-communists who see Hitler as a bulwark against communism (especially with the new Russian successes before Moscow), you've got the old style liberal isolationists who see war as merely a banker and industrialist's ploy to increase their profits, you've got the military types who can't see any sense in adding another opponent when you're having difficulty coping with just one, you've got the extreme right who think Hitler's got some good ideas, you've got sections of the German-Americans and the Catholic Church, you've got the Anglophobes and anti-imperialists who object to propping up the British Empire, you've got the businessmen who think war with Germany bad for trade, you've got the people who think Britain has lost and it's no favour to encourage the country to fight on instead of seeking the best possible terms, you've got the sceptics who see no chance of shipping an enormous army to Britain and then mounting an invasion of Europe, you have those who see the Pacific as America's future and the Atlantic as the past, you have sympathisers with China who feel it's the Japanese who are the enemy, you've got the Roosevelt haters who feel there must be something to be said for anyone who is against Roosevelt, you have the pacifists who see war as morally wrong and only leading to the militarisation of America. Still, here's pronouncements from various senators- Taft (Ohio): "The President confuses the defense of Britain with the defense of the United States". Wheeler (Montana): involvement in Europe "would plow under every fourth American boy." Clark (Idaho): aid to Britain would lead "the American people into war and ruin." Capper (Kansas): "There is no reason why we should not have peaceful relations with the world if we cease playing the role of international Meddlesome Mattie." Remember, the Draft Act was only renewed in the summer of 1941 by 203 votes to 202. In this climate, under the conditions I've given, do you really believe Roosevelt could have got a majority for war?
One last point. I've always found it curious, when this topic was raised, the frenzied opposition to the idea that the US might not have entered the war in Europe. I've always regaded it myself as one of the few crucial decisions which could have gone either way, yet many AH types get quite worked up. I suspect it's caused by several factors, those who believe in "the crusade in Europe" and won't accept that it might never have happened, those who believe in the duplicity of the New Dealers and that they were bound to get into the war, those who don't like the idea of the US's actions being governed by a foreigner's decision. Do you know, I'd be quite willing to bet that a majority of Americans still believe that America declared war on Germany rather than the other way around.
Valamyr
Banned
Prunesquallor said:
That much I'll agree on. In fact, there's no doubt there at all. I think a majority of americans think the French never fought in the war, and that Germany ruled all with no contest from the Altantic to the Urals until they gloriously saved the day in Normandy.
As for the rest, I kind of skimmed through, I'm a bit bored of the topic by now.
And your, how shall we put it, agressive rethoric isn't helping any. I think it's about time we agree to disagree in a civil fashion.
"Rudely"- Valamyr, you've led a sheltered life. When I consider that I once described on a public platform (and then wrote to tell him what I'd said) an official who'd offended me as "an arrogant little shit who'd turned into a grovelling little turd with no improvement to his personality" and as "of less human value than the last piece of unwiped shit on a baboon's arsehole"...
Redbeard
Banned
Valamyr said:
Excellent post Valamyr!
I didn't know about the June 41 internal memo about expecting war war within a year. I've always guessed that a US declaration of war would have followed in first half of 42 (if no PH), and that seems confirmed by the memo
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Valamyr
Banned
Prunesquallor said:
Well that sure speaks for your character.
Anyway, I hold no grudge for so little. This being said, I have a military background and therefore my life was anything but sheltered. I do like to believe I can hold the people I speak with to certain standards however.
Valamyr- you produce a long list of supposed incidents to back up your case, some of them totally inaccurate, you don't bother giving any source for these statements, then you moan about "certain standards." What was this background, the Salvation Army?
Yeah, I agree that without Hitler declaring war on the US immediately post-PH, the US would still have become involved in Europe sooner or later. WI the KRIEGSMARINE conducted fullscale U-Boat raids against US-escorted shipping such as with the USS REUBEN JAMES incident, but on a larger scale in terms of American loss of life and materiel, or with the apprehension of the German sabotage team on Long Island or some other band of Nazi spies, in early 1942 ? Wouldn't these incidents have given FDR the raison-d'etre for taking the US to war against Nazi Germany ?
But with the overwhelming commitment of men and materiel to the Pacific, the impact of American contributions to the fight in Nazi Germany would've taken more time.
But with the overwhelming commitment of men and materiel to the Pacific, the impact of American contributions to the fight in Nazi Germany would've taken more time.
Melvin Loh said:
I think you're right. There would have been some benefit to Britain, in that it could pull troops out of the Far East and bring them back to England, but without the immediate declaration by Hitler, the initial focus would have been on the Japanese.
Eventually, say 6 - 8 months, Roosevelt might have been able to have war declared against Germany, but it would take something else to do it, say Russia declaring War against the Japanese (which they didn't do until the very end of the War when the end was in sight).
This brings up the question, if Russia had declared war against the Japanese, they would have had to move more troops into the area, what would the effect have been in the Western Front?