What if Germany had become conventionally Fascist?

To be honest, I am more interested in what the “flavor” this German Fascist party would have. You know, like how Mussolini was big on Roman imagery and stuff. The Nazis IOTL borrowed lot of stuff from Romans, but what if maybe the German Fascists would look more to the First Reich for inspiration. It would tie in nicely with a message of Pan-Germanism, getting closer to the Austrians and a more racially inclusive state, which might sit better with Czechs. I guess you can’t get around Prussian militarists, so Teutonic flavor would also be there. I think it could be interesting.
 
For Portugal its the colonies, Mozambique for instance only a fraction of a percent of the black population were classed as Portuguese citizens and land was segregated on race.
And this differs from other colonial powers how? Please name a single African colony that wasn't segregated by race and where blacks were recognized as full citizens of the state.
 
And this differs from other colonial powers how? Please name a single African colony that wasn't segregated by race and where blacks were recognized as full citizens of the state.
Non Portuguese by 1960, all bar South Africa and Rhodesia , both of which were doing so despite the desires of the UK.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Oh dear, if this had became real! Then you could you could have overheard this conversation: Q: "So what are you, politically? A communist, anarchist or liberal or whatever? A: "No, I'm just a plain conventional fascist..." :perservingface:
 
Non Portuguese by 1960, all bar South Africa and Rhodesia , both of which were doing so despite the desires of the UK.
Wrong. The Belgian Congo was only desegregated after independence in mid 1960. Britain allowed segregation to persist in the Central African Federation until 1963, and then it would continue to provide diplomatic support to South Africa into the 70s. France continued to fight a brutal war to maintain its segregated state in Algeria until 1962. So no the other colonial powers weren't better than Portugal which didn't have universal segregation (rich whites had their own communities, poor white lived along side blacks and inter marriage was common and accepted) and allowed blacks to participate in local politics (most representatives in Mozambiques' rubber stamp assembly were black). The Portugese empire was by no means good, but to depict it as somehow worse than the other colonial powers is absurd.
 
Ok, so I can imagine a couple of PODs for this timeline:

1. Hitler is killed during WW1, preventing the creation of the Nazi Party altogether but, at the same time, making mainstream Fascism more popular.

2. The Beer Hall Putsch is MUCH bloodier and prolonged here than in OTL, leading to not only Hitler's arrest (and possible life sentence) but also cementing the Nazi's reputation of being terrorists and insurrectionists, leading to their eventual dissolvement (if they aren't completely crushed during the Putsch) but also for a more "moderate" Fascist party to pop up and basically say "Hey, guys! We're not like those OTHER Fascists! We're the TRUE Fascists!"

Of the two, I think the first is more likely, but what do you guys think?
 
Ok, so I can imagine a couple of PODs for this timeline:

1. Hitler is killed during WW1, preventing the creation of the Nazi Party altogether but, at the same time, making mainstream Fascism more popular.

2. The Beer Hall Putsch is MUCH bloodier and prolonged here than in OTL, leading to not only Hitler's arrest (and possible life sentence) but also cementing the Nazi's reputation of being terrorists and insurrectionists, leading to their eventual dissolvement (if they aren't completely crushed during the Putsch) but also for a more "moderate" Fascist party to pop up and basically say "Hey, guys! We're not like those OTHER Fascists! We're the TRUE Fascists!"

Of the two, I think the first is more likely, but what do you guys think?
Another one is Ludendorff backing the DNVP rather than the Nazis.
He was beloved by the public at large for being a war hero in WWI after all, and his support was a much bigger factor in the Nazi's rise to popularity than people realize.
 
Another one is Ludendorff backing the DNVP rather than the Nazis.
He was beloved by the public at large for being a war hero in WWI after all, and his support was a much bigger factor in the Nazi's rise to popularity than people realize.

Had to search up what the DNVP was, but you have a good point.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
The DNVP was far to reactionary to be even halfway as successful as the Nazis in establishing a right-wing authoritarian or fascist regime.

It lacked the appeal to young men from the working class. So the basically incorporating of KPD groups into something like the SA, or rather Stahlhelm is impossible.

As predominantly protestant party a new Kulturkampf is a lot likelier than a Reichskonkordat.

With the very unlikely restoration of the monarchy it's going back to Kaiserreich times, and that means elections parties and stuff.

Union where weakened by the great depression, but wouldn't have as easily rendered unfunctional with out creating something like the Deutsche Arbeitsfront.
 
To be honest, I am more interested in what the “flavor” this German Fascist party would have. You know, like how Mussolini was big on Roman imagery and stuff. The Nazis IOTL borrowed lot of stuff from Romans, but what if maybe the German Fascists would look more to the First Reich for inspiration. It would tie in nicely with a message of Pan-Germanism, getting closer to the Austrians and a more racially inclusive state, which might sit better with Czechs. I guess you can’t get around Prussian militarists, so Teutonic flavor would also be there. I think it could be interesting.

I think it would be interesting if the fascist party that rises in Germany is National Populist like kaiserreich being tied heviliy to religion.

A fascist Germany that holds Martin Luther and other church reformers in the highest esteem and seeks to build ties with the Dutch, the Brits, and the Nordic while fearmongering and preparing to destroy "Latin" Europe IE: Catholics.
 
To be honest, I am more interested in what the “flavor” this German Fascist party would have. You know, like how Mussolini was big on Roman imagery and stuff. The Nazis IOTL borrowed lot of stuff from Romans, but what if maybe the German Fascists would look more to the First Reich for inspiration. It would tie in nicely with a message of Pan-Germanism, getting closer to the Austrians and a more racially inclusive state, which might sit better with Czechs. I guess you can’t get around Prussian militarists, so Teutonic flavor would also be there. I think it could be interesting.
They did IRL too, look a Nazi propaganda, its full of Teutonic Knights and shit. Hell, their most ideologically important campaign, the invasion of the Soviet Union, was called "Barbarossa".
 
It lacked the appeal to young men from the working class.
That was much less important than many people think, while much of the appeal to the working class was important in getting elected, it was he support of the rich and aristocrats (Nazis gave lots of power back to the Prussian nobles) that gave the Nazis influence in the first place.

I'd tell you the name of the essays I've read but I'm not at home atm, but it's a book focused entirely on the rise of Nazism
 
Oh dear, if this had became real! Then you could you could have overheard this conversation: Q: "So what are you, politically? A communist, anarchist or liberal or whatever? A: "No, I'm just a plain conventional fascist..." :perservingface:
Sadly edgy teenagers say that all the time.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
That was much less important than many people think, while much of the appeal to the working class was important in getting elected, it was he support of the rich and aristocrats (Nazis gave lots of power back to the Prussian nobles) that gave the Nazis influence in the first place.

I'd tell you the name of the essays I've read but I'm not at home atm, but it's a book focused entirely on the rise of Nazism

The DNVP peaked at ca. 20% just not enough for establishing a totalitarian regime.

I am not saying that reactionary forces where not important, but just not enough.

Ironically, the Nazis eventually pretty much destroyed the Prussian nobility, at least as a political or military force.
 
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