What if Geoffrey Duke of Brittany had lived

Geoffrey the Duke of Brittany the third surviving son of Henry II, died in 1185 in a jousting accident I believe. What if he had not died then, and was around when his brother Richard became king in 1189? What might have changed?
 
There are two conflicting accounts: a jousting accident, sourced to the English chronicler Roger of Hoveden, and a sudden illness, sourced to the French chronicler Rigord. From what I gather, the jousting accident account is generally considered more likely.

Either way, if Geoffrey survives long enough, he'd have a good chance of beating out John Lackland to succeed Richard. I don't know much about Geoffrey's talents, personality, and policies apart from the fictionalized portrayal of him in A Lion in Winter, but odds are he'd be less of an arrogant jerk than John. If he does succeed John and does succeed in doing a better job than John at not pissing everyone off, that delays (probably not avoids) the loss of the Angevin possessions in France. It also prevents the rebellions that lead to the adoption of the Magna Carta, meaning that codified checks and limits to royal authority in England come later and take a different form.
 
There are two conflicting accounts: a jousting accident, sourced to the English chronicler Roger of Hoveden, and a sudden illness, sourced to the French chronicler Rigord. From what I gather, the jousting accident account is generally considered more likely.

Either way, if Geoffrey survives long enough, he'd have a good chance of beating out John Lackland to succeed Richard. I don't know much about Geoffrey's talents, personality, and policies apart from the fictionalized portrayal of him in A Lion in Winter, but odds are he'd be less of an arrogant jerk than John. If he does succeed John and does succeed in doing a better job than John at not pissing everyone off, that delays (probably not avoids) the loss of the Angevin possessions in France. It also prevents the rebellions that lead to the adoption of the Magna Carta, meaning that codified checks and limits to royal authority in England come later and take a different form.

Hmm interesting, King Geoffrey I, would certainly lead to an interesting dynamic I think. His son succeeding him as King Arthur, certainly holds a certain appeal as well.
 
Hmm interesting, King Geoffrey I, would certainly lead to an interesting dynamic I think. His son succeeding him as King Arthur, certainly holds a certain appeal as well.

Would TTL's Arthur be called Arthur? He was born and named after his father's death, and the name 'Arthur' is Celtic in origin, more in line with Geoffrey's wife, Constance of Brittany. I'd imagine the firstborn son would probably be named Henry after Geoffrey's father.
 
Would TTL's Arthur be called Arthur? He was born and named after his father's death, and the name 'Arthur' is Celtic in origin, more in line with Geoffrey's wife, Constance of Brittany. I'd imagine the firstborn son would probably be named Henry after Geoffrey's father.

Hmm true enough, though given the symbolism of such a thing, and if I am correct the whole arthur mythos was coming into fashion, would it not be symbolic?
 
Furthermore, with what appears Geoffrey's pro french leanings, could there be more cordial relations with Paris?
 
Furthermore, with what appears Geoffrey's pro french leanings, could there be more cordial relations with Paris?

All four of Henry II's sons allied themselves at various times with Philip Augustus, which follows naturally from Philip being a convient rival power-center to Henry, and one with a great deal to gain by driving a wedge between Henry on one hand and his sons and French vassals on the other hand. Based purely on Machiavellian logic, I'd expect Philip to ally with Geoffrey and John against Richard during Richard's reign, then with John against Geoffrey when Geoffrey succeeds to the English crown.

However, there's also the intriguing possibility that Philip and Geoffrey may have been lovers. As I understand it, there's tantalizing but inconclusive evidence in favor of a homosexual relationship between Philip and one or both of Richard and Geoffrey, and if they were not lovers they were probably very close friends. If the relationship was between Philip and Richard, it certainly didn't stop the two from fighting when Richard was King of England. But if the relationship was with Geoffrey, it might have implications for their policies towards one another as heads of state.
 
All four of Henry II's sons allied themselves at various times with Philip Augustus, which follows naturally from Philip being a convient rival power-center to Henry, and one with a great deal to gain by driving a wedge between Henry on one hand and his sons and French vassals on the other hand. Based purely on Machiavellian logic, I'd expect Philip to ally with Geoffrey and John against Richard during Richard's reign, then with John against Geoffrey when Geoffrey succeeds to the English crown.

However, there's also the intriguing possibility that Philip and Geoffrey may have been lovers. As I understand it, there's tantalizing but inconclusive evidence in favor of a homosexual relationship between Philip and one or both of Richard and Geoffrey, and if they were not lovers they were probably very close friends. If the relationship was between Philip and Richard, it certainly didn't stop the two from fighting when Richard was King of England. But if the relationship was with Geoffrey, it might have implications for their policies towards one another as heads of state.

Hmm very interesting, very interesting. Do you think Geoffrey would ever dare outright rebel against his brother? Or would he merely do what John did, but to a better extent given that he was said to be quite cunning and sly
 
Hmm very interesting, very interesting. Do you think Geoffrey would ever dare outright rebel against his brother? Or would he merely do what John did, but to a better extent given that he was said to be quite cunning and sly

I was thinking, if things go according to OTL, minus his death of course, that Geoffrey might allow John to ally with Philip Augustus but ally himself at least publicly with Richard to make himself look better in the king's eyes when he gets back. Geoffrey did acquire a reputation for treachery, but if he's next in line for the throne, he might want to make sure John gets in as much trouble as possible.
 
I was thinking, if things go according to OTL, minus his death of course, that Geoffrey might allow John to ally with Philip Augustus but ally himself at least publicly with Richard to make himself look better in the king's eyes when he gets back. Geoffrey did acquire a reputation for treachery, but if he's next in line for the throne, he might want to make sure John gets in as much trouble as possible.

Hmm, true, very true. I can see Geoffrey playing that card alright, especially as he did seem to be quite the player out of all his brothers.
 
We could have John as duke of Aquitaine or we will have Eudes d'Este/Welf, the son of Henry the Lion as duke of Aquitaine, in OTL that Eudes became the Holy Roman Emperor..
 
We could have John as duke of Aquitaine or we will have Eudes d'Este/Welf, the son of Henry the Lion as duke of Aquitaine, in OTL that Eudes became the Holy Roman Emperor..

Oh you mean OTL Otto IV . :p Nah Geoffrey with the rest of the Angevin lands and undoubtedly support of some of the Aquitaine nobility can be able to even regain that from John.
Who did Eleanore like better Geoffrey or John?:confused:
 
Oh you mean OTL Otto IV . :p Nah Geoffrey with the rest of the Angevin lands and undoubtedly support of some of the Aquitaine nobility can be able to even regain that from John.
Who did Eleanore like better Geoffrey or John?:confused:
If John becomes the Duke of Aquitaine, he will become an ally of Philippe Auguste, I think John would marry Alice of France, the former mistress of his father or to the Navarre family so no Isabella of Angouleme.
 
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Oh you mean OTL Otto IV . :p Nah Geoffrey with the rest of the Angevin lands and undoubtedly support of some of the Aquitaine nobility can be able to even regain that from John.
Who did Eleanore like better Geoffrey or John?:confused:

Hmm interesting, when did John become Duke of Aquitaine?

If John becomes the Duke of Aquitaine, he will become an ally of Philippe Auguste, I think John would marry Alice of France, the former mistress of his father or to the Navarre family so no Isabella of Angouleme.

Hmm interesting, do you think he would dare lower himself to marrying his father's seconds?
 
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