What if gb had accepted hitters may 41 offer of peace

[trajen777]

In May 41 hitler made the following offer for peace ... What if gb had accepted it :

By David Pyne, on January 16th, 2019
http://www.intellectualconservative...ers-1941-peace-offer-carried-by-rudolph-hess/



What follows is the essence of Hitler’s peace proposal included some minor details I have extrapolated from what he had Hess deliver to the British in May 1941, which included an offer of German military withdrawals from all of Western Europe, southern Europe and the Mediterranean:

1. All hostilities between the German Reich and the British Commonwealth will cease immediately.

2. Germany agrees to withdraw all military forces from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway.

3. In addition, Germany agrees to withdraw all military forces from Yugoslavia, Greece, Libya, western Egypt and the Mediterranean region generally.

4. France will cede Alsace-Lorraine back to Germany, along with the French colony of Madagascar and will transfer the French aircraft carrier Bearn and the battleships Provence, Strasbourg, Richelieu and Jean Bart (still under construction) to German control.

5. All European Jews will be deported to Madagascar where they would be granted self-rule and control of domestic and economic affairs while Germany retains control of their foreign policy and security. Alternatively, the Jews will be shipped to Palestine to remain under British control.

6. Germany will retain control of Luxembourg.

7. Belgium will return the Eupen-Malmedy District to Germany.

8. Britain will take a position of benevolent neutrality in the event of any potential conflict between Germany and the U.S.S.R. including facilitating the sale of foodstuffs and raw materials to Germany.

9. No war reparations will be levied against any belligerent country.

10. France will continue production of tanks, aircraft and artillery and will provide raw materials as necessary to support any impending German war effort against the U.S.S.R.

11. All prisoners of war will be returned to their home countries including two million French POW’s.

12. Germany will help mediate a peaceful resolution of the conflict between Britain and Italy including disputed Italian claims on Yugoslavia and Greece (perhaps a withdrawal of Italian troops from all non-annexed areas limiting them to an occupation of the Dalmatian coast much of which had been promised to Italy by the Allies in exchange for declaring war on Germany and Austria-Hungary in World War I) as well as to the Anglo-Italian conflicts over their African colonies (potentially resulting in the transfer of British Somalialand, Malta, Corsica, Tunisia, and French Somalia to Italy.)

13. Britain and France agree to return all former Imperial German colonies, excepting those taken over by Japan, including Tanganyika, Rwanda, Burundi, German Southwest Africa (modern-day Namibia), Cameroon, Togo, Kaiser-Wilhelmsland (northeast New Guinea), Nauru, the Bismarck Archipelago, the North Solomon Islands and Samoa. British troops to be allowed a rail corridor across Tanganyika linking British colonies in northern and southern Africa.

14. German troops will be made available to defend the British Empire if needed.

 

[Evil Crusader]

#12 and #13 are particularly unacceptable. #10 makes them uneasy, too.

 

[Dupplin Muir]

I think Hitler had such a huge credibility-problem by this time, that any such plan was a non-starter.

 

[Ramontxo]

Once upon a time I was playing CVII and after egregiously broking my word against the AI was obliged to pledge for a peace treaty. The Computer agreed only to then telling me that I would be a fool to believe in the protection that treaty offered...

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Unfortunately (or should that be fortunately) the British Government were not on the same level of drug usage as the German leadership was (Particulaly Herr Hess)

Also there is a requirement for the French Government to agree to some of those terms - for example the handing over of battleships etc is probably out of the question

Lastly as I have said many times before - Hitlers word is considered less value than someone elses piss steam by this point

 

[Hades]

After 1938 hitler could no longer be trusted to keep his word. He is the reason 1920s pacifism died brutally.

 

[changeablepast]

The article you quote states that Hess was a semi-official peace delegate endorsed by Hitler and that Hitler was willing to return all Polish territory and would totally withdraw from all occupied territories---- apart from some minor border areas. I would want to see alot more source material because this goes against most established histories....Also his claim that Hitler actually WEPT at the thought of was with Britain and France in 1939 because all he wanted was peace with the west.....Does not agree with most of the general reading I have done on the subject.

 

[merlin]

The article also claimed that Japan offered to withdraw from China, to reverse the embargoes! Doubt it very much, too much loss of face!

 

[trajen777]

The article you quote states that Hess was a semi-official peace delegate endorsed by Hitler and that Hitler was willing to return all Polish territory and would totally withdraw from all occupied territories---- apart from some minor border areas. I would want to see alot more source material because this goes against most established histories....Also his claim that Hitler actually WEPT at the thought of was with Britain and France in 1939 because all he wanted was peace with the west.....Does not agree with most of the general reading I have done on the subject.

Yes it is unusual -- i have never seen this story before -- the book is coming to the Seattle library and i have on order -- what you are referencing is this part :

On September 2, 1939, the day after he invaded Poland but before Britain and France had declared war on Germany, Hitler offered to end the war and withdraw from the rest of Poland if he was allowed to keep Danzig and the Polish Corridor (defined by Hitler to include most but not all of the former German province of West Prussia) while allowing Poland to retain the rest of the former German territory of West Prussia along with all of Posen and East Upper Silesia which they had annexed from Germany in 1919 without plebiscites. When Hitler was informed that Britain had declared war on Germany the following day in response to Germany’s invasion of Poland, accounts indicate that he turned ‘ghastly white’ and fell into a depression.

Hitler’s failure to ask for the return of all or even most of Germany’s lost eastern territories annexed by Poland after World War One combined with his offer to end his invasion of Poland the very day after it began provide substantial evidence both that he was serious in his determination to avert a world war with Britain and France and that his foreign policy objectives were limited in nature. If the Allies had accepted this peace offer, war between Germany and the Allies would have been averted and perhaps the Soviets would have actually ended up being viewed as the main aggressors for invading and annexing the eastern half of Poland two weeks later and Britain and France might have considered declaring war on the Soviet Union instead.

 

[vortiger]

i must say it looks like a pretty good deal. if this deal got out at the time and Churchill openly rejected it, it might have led to a general election and the ousting of the government.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

Assuming this is a legit offer and assuming the British take it and assuming Hitler keeps his word (three huge assumptions) this part intrigued me:

14. German troops will be made available to defend the British Empire if needed.

So there's a chance - a very small chance, but a chance nonetheless - that German soldiers could be fighting the IJA in Malaysia/Burma. That's a fun timeline to think about.

 

[trajen777]

Assuming this is a legit offer and assuming the British take it and assuming Hitler keeps his word (three huge assumptions) this part intrigued me:

14. German troops will be made available to defend the British Empire if needed.

So there's a chance - a very small chance, but a chance nonetheless - that German soldiers could be fighting the IJA in Malaysia/Burma. That's a fun timeline to think about.

Yep it would be -- the interesting part would be GB would not be devastated (financially etc) -- and if it so chose could reenter in a better prepared position in 42/43 /44.

An interesting point that the author brought up was and would also make an interesting TL is a Jewish Palestinian state with 3 x the population -- and no Holocaust :

Padfield in his excellent book, “Hess, Hitler and Churchill: The Real Turning Point of the Second World War – A Secret History,” and a few others which have been published in recent years which provide definite proof that Hitler was not trying to conquer the world but rather was limited in his ambitions to reuniting Germany and carving out a new empire for Germany at the expense of western Russia and Ukraine.
Padfield has also stated that he believes that the British government has suppressed the terms of the Treaty because he believes Hess informed the British of Hitler’s plans to mass murder the Jews if Churchill did not agree to peace and permit their deportation to Madagascar or Palestine which Churchill refused. If it was known that Churchill was given the opportunity by Hitler to stop the Jewish Holocaust and refused to do so, it would certainly be damaging to his reputation.

Reviews of the book -------https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18934505-hess-hitler-and-churchill

 

[pattersonautobody]

I think Hitler had such a huge credibility-problem by this time, that any such plan was a non-starter.

We're not talking about Hitler, we're talking about Hitter...different dood

 

[Garrison]

Yep it would be -- the interesting part would be GB would not be devastated (financially etc) -- and if it so chose could reenter in a better prepared position in 42/43 /44.

An interesting point that the author brought up was and would also make an interesting TL is a Jewish Palestinian state with 3 x the population -- and no Holocaust :

Padfield in his excellent book, “Hess, Hitler and Churchill: The Real Turning Point of the Second World War – A Secret History,” and a few others which have been published in recent years which provide definite proof that Hitler was not trying to conquer the world but rather was limited in his ambitions to reuniting Germany and carving out a new empire for Germany at the expense of western Russia and Ukraine.
Padfield has also stated that he believes that the British government has suppressed the terms of the Treaty because he believes Hess informed the British of Hitler’s plans to mass murder the Jews if Churchill did not agree to peace and permit their deportation to Madagascar or Palestine which Churchill refused. If it was known that Churchill was given the opportunity by Hitler to stop the Jewish Holocaust and refused to do so, it would certainly be damaging to his reputation.

Reviews of the book -------https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18934505-hess-hitler-and-churchill

So a bunch of Nazi apologist nonsense then? Hitler launched the mass murder of the Jews out of his own rabid anti-semitism and it would have been dwarfed by the slaughter he planned in the new Nazi empire in the East.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

They might accept it if Hess proves it's a sincere non-repudiable offer by throwing in #15: Hitler's head in a bowling bag.

 

[jmc247]

The writer of the article represents an increasing trend of elite thinkers in the U.S. to resent the end to Britian and France resolving issues in Africa and the Middle East and Germany containing Russia.

Americans by in large do not want to be the world policeman and more and more it is exactly that as the only other countries who can politically do it are China and Russia as part of the fallout from how WW2 evolved.

Where the author is wrong is a couple key places such assuming Germany would lose in the East in a situation with no LL, all German industry directed war in the East and Rommel and his forces recalled to Europe. Any one of these factors on their own would have been potential game changer and here all of them happen in his scenario.

At worst for Hitler he would be negotiating for where the line is drawn in Ukraine several years down the line and Nazi Germany could end up doing better then that if one or both of the ‘grads’ fall in 41/42.

That would not be in the British Empire’s interest much less humanities. But, that being said Churchill believed in balance of power politics on the continent and didn’t want the situation OTL where Britian was bankrupt and Berlin destroyed as a future force to contain Moscow.

Churchill sort of had to realize his goals and Washington’s goals were not going to meet up while he prosecuted the war and forced Germany to divert resources and I don’t think he did until it was too late to change policy toward something that would tie down Germany while the Soviets were on the ropes at a reduced expense to keep the British Empire a core global decision maker on par with post war Moscow and Washington.

Be it France or Germany or Russia it was always British policy to prevent a hyperpower in Europe. But, that was not American policy at the time and Churchill mortgaged the British Empire to Washington. He who has the gold makes the rules or in this case the policy.

 

[merlin]

Assuming this is a legit offer and assuming the British take it and assuming Hitler keeps his word (three huge assumptions) this part intrigued me:

14. German troops will be made available to defend the British Empire if needed.

So there's a chance - a very small chance, but a chance nonetheless - that German soldiers could be fighting the IJA in Malaysia/Burma. That's a fun timeline to think about.

Yes, I found that interesting too. But the question what sort of scenario was Hitler thinking of to make that offer!?

1 - You don't need to continue rearming, we will protect you.
2 - To assist with civil unrest within the Empire - India.
3 - To support Canada, over any incursion by the USA!
4 - Could be to keep the IJA on the right side of the demarcation line.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

i must say it looks like a pretty good deal. if this deal got out at the time and Churchill openly rejected it, it might have led to a general election and the ousting of the government.

Let's look at Hitler's track record, shall we?

Munich: Torn up and ripped to shreds

Anglo-German Naval agreement: Renounced

Polish-German Non-Aggression Pact: ahaahahahaha

Molotov Ribbentrop Pact: Well lets read this section of the treaty

10. France will continue production of tanks, aircraft and artillery and will provide raw materials as necessary to support any impending German war effort against the U.S.S.R.

Wow its almost like Hitler uses international agreements as toilet paper. The deal is worthless

 

[merlin]

Padfield in his excellent book, “Hess, Hitler and Churchill: The Real Turning Point of the Second World War – A Secret History,” and a few others which have been published in recent years which provide definite proof that Hitler was not trying to conquer the world but rather was limited in his ambitions to reuniting Germany and carving out a new empire for Germany at the expense of western Russia and Ukraine.

The big problem with Hitler, is always wondering 'what comes next'! At Munich he was full of it being his final territorial demand, then he took the rest of the country. Following up with 'demands' on Poland. And if he did manage to manipulate the Polish question, with just minor border tinkering, does anyone really believe he wouldn't take the rest when everyone's backs were turned?
My book recommendation would be - Ten Days that Saved the West' by John Costello - it covers all the various peace intrigues of 1940, and the Hess mission - was it a Mi6 revenge for Venlo, or an aristo plot that was foiled!

 

[Mikestone8]

The big problem with Hitler, is always wondering 'what comes next'! At Munich he was full of it being his final territorial demand, then he took the rest of the country. Following up with 'demands' on Poland. And if he did manage to manipulate the Polish question, with just minor border tinkering, does anyone really believe he wouldn't take the rest when everyone's backs were turned?

Exactly. It was a case of "Been there. Done that". Everybody knew that had a peaceful solution existed, Chamberlain would have found it and we wouldn't have been at war. As Churchill himself put it.

"Herr Hitler protests with frantic words and gestures that he has only desired peace. What do these ravings and outpourings count before the silence of Neville Chamberlain’s tomb?"