What if France would have won the War of Devolution?

France at this time was pursuing natural borders. I doubt they would want land on the other side of the Pyrenees.

The Natural Borders are more of a late 18th century phenomenom. Don't forget, Louis XVI had no problem seizing cities on the right side of the Rhine...
 
If the Spanish really failed and the French didn't back down for the Triple Alliance that would mean the Dutch would almost certainly intervene, they had no desire for France to be on their borders and preferred a weak Spanish Netherlands there, in addition to Spain and the HRE (and possibly England) set up against France I could see a large scale European war coming.
 
If the Spanish really failed and the French didn't back down for the Triple Alliance that would mean the Dutch would almost certainly intervene, they had no desire for France to be on their borders and preferred a weak Spanish Netherlands there, in addition to Spain and the HRE (and possibly England) set up against France I could see a large scale European war coming.

Yeah, indeed. But the next question naturally is: what would that war look like...?
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Yeah, indeed. But the next question naturally is: what would that war look like...?

Sweden would fight German allies of France securing the Dutch eastern flank. After signing the peace with Portugal Spain would have it's hands free to engage the French in the South or (protected by the English and Dutch fleets) to send a significant field army to Flanders to support the Dutch and possibly English armies. In the meanwhile the French colonies are at being split by the Anglo-Dutch.
 
Sweden would fight German allies of France securing the Dutch eastern flank. After signing the peace with Portugal Spain would have it's hands free to engage the French in the South or (protected by the English and Dutch fleets) to send a significant field army to Flanders to support the Dutch and possibly English armies. In the meanwhile the French colonies are at being split by the Anglo-Dutch.

Thanks. By the way, are you Dutch too?
 
Very interesting but I think everyone seems to forget something about a certain member of the Triple Alliance: England or more specifically Charles II. OTL Charles II would abandon the triple Alliance for France within two years. Whats to stop Louis XIV from offering a partition of Netherlands (and possible territory in the Spanish Netherlands) a few years earlier? I mean the Stuart Dynasty seemed to be very pro-French so it seems more likely that England would either stay neutral or join in an Anglo-French Alliance(unless there is a specific French territory that England desperately wanted).
 
Very interesting but I think everyone seems to forget something about a certain member of the Triple Alliance: England or more specifically Charles II. OTL Charles II would abandon the triple Alliance for France within two years. Whats to stop Louis XIV from offering a partition of Netherlands (and possible territory in the Spanish Netherlands) a few years earlier? I mean the Stuart Dynasty seemed to be very pro-French so it seems more likely that England would either stay neutral or join in an Anglo-French Alliance(unless there is a specific French territory that England desperately wanted).

Yeah, I thought something similar too. Probably England would change side and I think they wouldn't mind having some *Belgian land, would they? :p
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Thanks. By the way, are you Dutch too?

Yup! Amsterdam born, raised and living.

Very interesting but I think everyone seems to forget something about a certain member of the Triple Alliance: England or more specifically Charles II. OTL Charles II would abandon the triple Alliance for France within two years. Whats to stop Louis XIV from offering a partition of Netherlands (and possible territory in the Spanish Netherlands) a few years earlier? I mean the Stuart Dynasty seemed to be very pro-French so it seems more likely that England would either stay neutral or join in an Anglo-French Alliance(unless there is a specific French territory that England desperately wanted).


I highly doubt that England is going to side with France after the drubbing they got in the Second Anglo-Dutch War which was only concluded on such favourable terms (for the English) because of the War of Devolution. The English fleet was crushed so in the case of a Anglo-French alliance the Dutch-Spanish fleet could probably get the better of their opponents.
 
Yup! Amsterdam born, raised and living.




I highly doubt that England is going to side with France after the drubbing they got in the Second Anglo-Dutch War which was only concluded on such favourable terms (for the English) because of the War of Devolution. The English fleet was crushed so in the case of a Anglo-French alliance the Dutch-Spanish fleet could probably get the better of their opponents.

Charles II eventually abandoned the Protestant alliance though, much to the chagrin of Parliament. He did side with France during the Franco-Dutch war in 1672 with plans to make Holland into an English protectorate. England didn't really engage in this war though, and Parliament forced him to abandon his plans. A few years later he'd try ruling without Parliament by receiving French subsidies, and also signing a secret treaty promising more money if he became Catholic, although he damned two of his Catholic ministers by forcing them to sign it but leaving his own name off.

In 1672 the French fleet preformed pretty well against the Dutch, and Louis XIV was at this point even giving Charles II 225,000 pounds a year which he could've used to build a fleet, but chose to squander it on luxuries. If he uses the money wisely (Parliament isn't going to vote funds for the Royal Navy to fight the Dutch), the war could go differently, although the money he's receiving is rather paltry and he may need Parliament eventually. England and France would need a quick victory which I'm not sure is possible.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Charles II eventually abandoned the Protestant alliance though, much to the chagrin of Parliament.

A few years later though. If the war turns hot it isn't going to be in a few years but after the winter. The Triple Alliance was build specifically to counter the French if they would go to far.

He did side with France during the Franco-Dutch war in 1672 with plans to make Holland into an English protectorate. England didn't really engage in this war though, and Parliament forced him to abandon his plans.

I wouldn't call the seabattles off the coast of Holland (in which Michiel de Ruyter showed he was one of the best admirals ever) skrimishes. The seabattles were very intense and had it gone the other way around the English fleet would have landed a army on the doorstep of the Republic.


In 1672 the French fleet preformed pretty well against the Dutch, and Louis XIV was at this point even giving Charles II 225,000 pounds a year which he could've used to build a fleet, but chose to squander it on luxuries. If he uses the money wisely (Parliament isn't going to vote funds for the Royal Navy to fight the Dutch), the war could go differently, although the money he's receiving is rather paltry and he may need Parliament eventually. England and France would need a quick victory which I'm not sure is possible.

The French fleet didn't preform very well in the battles of 1672 actually though that might be because Louis preffered the English risking their ships above him damaging any. The thing is that in 1668 there wasn't much of a English navy.
 
The French fleet didn't preform very well in the battles of 1672 actually though that might be because Louis preffered the English risking their ships above him damaging any. The thing is that in 1668 there wasn't much of a English navy.

Really? They destroyed a Dutch fleet in the Mediterranean and De Ruyter was killed in battle as well, although it was in an inconclusive battle. The French navy wasn't in the great shape it'd be in at the end of the century, but I'd say they performed well enough against the Dutch who were really the premier naval power at this time.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Really? They destroyed a Dutch fleet in the Mediterranean and De Ruyter was killed in battle as well, although it was in an inconclusive battle. The French navy wasn't in the great shape it'd be in at the end of the century, but I'd say they performed well enough against the Dutch who were really the premier naval power at this time.


The French did perform to a pretty capable standard at the end of the Franco-Dutch War yes but that was after they learned alot by fighting alongside the English and against the Dutch. That was actually one of the instructions King Louis gave the French Fleet when it sailed to battle in 1672: Keep your ships intact and learn as much as you can! This doesn't mean they are that capable in 1668 though :)

BTW about the French victories off Sicily in 1676: the French fought very, very well and Duquense was an excellent fleet commander but the Dutch fleet send to the Meditteranean was too weak and too badly equipped as the Dutch government expected the Spanish to make up for the difference but that didn't materialise in the way they hoped. In fact de Ruyter complained about this to the Admiralty (packed with Orangists by now. De Ruyter was more of a Estates-man) but was then asked if he was too afraid to sail out at his high age. Insulted he replied that
"The Messrs. have not to ask, but simply to command me. And even if I would be commanded to fly our country's flag on one single ship, I'd sail it to see and as the Estates entrust me with their flag, I'd risk my life.
 
The War of Devolution just sounds like if France had won they would be slapping Chimps upside the head.
 
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