What if France won first rounds with Nazi Germany

Jason222

Banned
How long would have World War II gone on for if France successful chase Nazi Germany out of it Territory force Nazi Germany to surrender.
Follow factors it took USA, UK and Russia about few months to match to Germany Capitol city.
Lot of unknowns would USA been welling agree lend and lease act.
 
If France had beaten Germany during the western offensive and caused a full surrender of Germany and other Axis forces then it would have made the Far East situation much easier.

Firstly, The Soviets most certainly would have raced to grab as much of German controlled Poland as possible as well as Koniegsberg.
Austria would of been re-created as a separate country as well as the Czech Republic and Slovakia (Not likely they would have been re-established as one country due to political differances at the time).

In North Africa Italy would loose much of the teritory there as well as possibly being forced to recognise an independant Ethiopia in return for removing Mussolini and continued sovereignty.

Far East wise.
With Britian not comitted in the West further troops and naval assets could be committed to the Far East Defence.
As well as France not relinqueshing Indo-China and having their Naval assets free to assist.
This may not have prevented Japanese aggression in this theatre, however the loss of Singapore and Burma may have been prevented or lessened.

I however cannot see a way in which the Allies in 1940 could beat the Germans out of Belgium and France, let along force a surrender of the Axis forces at this time. Though if others have varying views then please put them forward. :)
 
If France had beaten Germany during the western offensive and caused a full surrender of Germany and other Axis forces then it would have made the Far East situation much easier.

Firstly, The Soviets most certainly would have raced to grab as much of German controlled Poland as possible as well as Koniegsberg.
Austria would of been re-created as a separate country as well as the Czech Republic and Slovakia (Not likely they would have been re-established as one country due to political differances at the time).

In North Africa Italy would loose much of the teritory there as well as possibly being forced to recognise an independant Ethiopia in return for removing Mussolini and continued sovereignty.

Far East wise.
With Britian not comitted in the West further troops and naval assets could be committed to the Far East Defence.
As well as France not relinqueshing Indo-China and having their Naval assets free to assist.
This may not have prevented Japanese aggression in this theatre, however the loss of Singapore and Burma may have been prevented or lessened.

I however cannot see a way in which the Allies in 1940 could beat the Germans out of Belgium and France, let along force a surrender of the Axis forces at this time. Though if others have varying views then please put them forward. :)

The POD would be...
1- No Maginot...poor Andre dies of shell fish poisoning the Summer before he is appointed as Minister of War.
2-Then you need a new minister able to think abaout a balanced military using combined arms tactics or at least ableto deal with the rapidly aging General staff via mass retirements and re-organizing the War Ministry.
 
The POD would be...
1- No Maginot...poor Andre dies of shell fish poisoning the Summer before he is appointed as Minister of War.
2-Then you need a new minister able to think abaout a balanced military using combined arms tactics or at least ableto deal with the rapidly aging General staff via mass retirements and re-organizing the War Ministry.

Or - how about a complete Maginot line right up to the sea. (they only had minor works from Luxembourg northward OTL). Ignore the "advance into Belgium" bit of the strategy, especially since they were trying to be neutral right up to the kick-off. The Low Countries are on their own now.

With a complete line of Maginot-grade fortification right the way along the French border would the Germans have even tried to crack it, or simply accept a "Sitzkrieg" situation, thus tying down a massive amount of troops that now cannot go East?. (Perhaps building up their own West wall, to "counter Maginot" the French).
 
Or - how about a complete Maginot line right up to the sea. (they only had minor works from Luxembourg northward OTL). Ignore the "advance into Belgium" bit of the strategy, especially since they were trying to be neutral right up to the kick-off. The Low Countries are on their own now.

With a complete line of Maginot-grade fortification right the way along the French border would the Germans have even tried to crack it, or simply accept a "Sitzkrieg" situation, thus tying down a massive amount of troops that now cannot go East?. (Perhaps building up their own West wall, to "counter Maginot" the French).

The Germans were more than able to break through the maginot line; furthermore the French would never build the fortifications through some of their main industrial regions, the idea was to force the fighting to take place is Belgium. The maginot line was a bad idea all over, eating up divisions that would be better used actually fighting the Germans.
 
Or - how about a complete Maginot line right up to the sea. (they only had minor works from Luxembourg northward OTL). Ignore the "advance into Belgium" bit of the strategy, especially since they were trying to be neutral right up to the kick-off. The Low Countries are on their own now.

With a complete line of Maginot-grade fortification right the way along the French border would the Germans have even tried to crack it, or simply accept a "Sitzkrieg" situation, thus tying down a massive amount of troops that now cannot go East?. (Perhaps building up their own West wall, to "counter Maginot" the French).

I don't even think you have to go back that far. Just stop the initial German invasion planes from crash landing in Belgium. The German's never have to remake their planes and think to go through the Ardennes and you have them replay the Schlieffen plan but with tanks which is exactly what the Allies are expecting.
 
How long would have World War II gone on for if France successful chase Nazi Germany out of it Territory force Nazi Germany to surrender.

Depends on how severe the initial battle is, and when. The original plan was to attack in October 1939. That was set back to November for additional preparations. Then the weather caused repeated delays.

A October attack would have quickly stalled. Fewer Armored divisions in the German army, artillery ammunition short in some calibers, the newly mobilized reserve units unready for operations, and only partially trained...

Some of those problems would have been solved as November passed into December or January. Tho the training still would have been inferior. The final postphonment of the offensive to late spring allowed the Germany army to stand down from their ready positions, and start a comprehensive training program. Febuary, March, and April were spent sharpening the skills from the senior staff down to the lowest landser.

Halder ran a series of wargames during the autum & winter. they typical result in those exercises was stalemate between the French & German armies, with the front stagnated somewhere in Belgium or Northern France. My opinion is this would have been the case. Perhpas morale would have broken among the German soldiers and the Generals revolt against the nazis at that point.

Lot of unknowns would USA been welling agree lend and lease act.

Before the collapse of France the Allies had calculated their financial reserves would last to 1942. Their purchases from the US & elsewhere were budgeted to peak in early 1942 when the French rearmament program would be near completion. The French had closely studied the economics of the Great War (WWI) & thought the Allies could wage economic warfare more efficiently. they hoped to collapse Germanys economy sometime in late 1941, making a general offensive easier.

Lend Lease as we know it would not have been a part of this. LL was created to deal with the emergency of Britains situation after the French collapse, then extended to other Allied nations. Were France to continue in the war lower interest credit and better prices would have been the best Roosevelt could have arrainged.
 

Archibald

Banned
If the Wermacht don't use that Ardennes trick it is doomed. And even if it uses it, May 13 1940 was a damn close thing. The f*ckers were very lucky (truth be told, the French soldiers there - the 71th infantry division reservists - were also idiots).
 
Cancel the Breda variant and keep the northernmost French army (which was also one of their best) in reserve AS ORIGINALLY INTENDED.

With some luck, some of the Sedan crossings are delayed (like nearly happened OTL), enough for this new reserve, as well as Huntzinger's units held in reserve further south, to move into the area and block the German advance.
 
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