What if Floris V of Holland lives?

mats

Banned
inspired by this thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=38744

Anyways, Floris V was abducted and killed by some nobles. He had great terretorial and dynastical ambitions. So, What if he lived, let's say the plot is discovered and the nobles involved executed. Or maybe he doesn't break his alliance with England to get an alliance with France. Does he go on to conquer Friesland? or maybe Flanders... discuss.
 
The Alliance with England is over anyway, Holland owning Zeeland caused troubles with Flanders who were allied with England against France, thus Holland''s natural ally would be France.

Conquering Flanders would only be possible with aid from the French king

Conquering Friesland is possible, but i don't see Floris holding more than the coast, and maybe his heirs slowly taking more
 

mats

Banned
The Alliance with England is over anyway, Holland owning Zeeland caused troubles with Flanders who were allied with England against France, thus Holland''s natural ally would be France.

Conquering Flanders would only be possible with aid from the French king

Conquering Friesland is possible, but i don't see Floris holding more than the coast, and maybe his heirs slowly taking more

Yes, so let's say the nobles are captured. anyways, iit got me thinking, what if he manages to set up a succesfull dynasty? Where and what would the butterflies be? maybe an earlier united Netherlands?
 
He would definitely resume the war against Flanders and raise a peasant army to do it. He planned that before his capture anyway. Edward I had convinced him to stop but his capture on the order of Edward would make Edward even more of a enemy than before and make him change his mind. The fact that he was captured rallied the peasants around him so raising an army wouldn't be a big issue for him. Whether he would have won the war would be a bigger question mark.
 
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Short term most likely he change England for France as ally. If he could conquer Flandres or really is willing to do is a second thing. At that time Flandres and Brabant had significant cities and an economy which eclipsed Holland. Which in turn means the Count of Flandres had deeper coffers than Floris.
I liked the link to the older threat, to bad it was not finished. I think that tread was more plausibel. Expanding to the East at the Expence of Guelders and may be later Kleve, Mark, Berg and Julich. Or after Guelders turn South to Flanders.
If he start a dinasty, it wil mean, on the long turn, that what we called now the Nehterlands and Belgium are a longer time part of the HRE and even provided an electorate.
Do not know if the Dukes of Burgundy will be come as powerfull and rich as in OTL, since their economic base lay again in Brabant and Flanders.
An other factor will be the positions of the cities, in OTL the cities of Holland, Zeeland, Flanders and Brabant never evolved in to citiy states as in Itally due to strong (brute) oposistion of the land lords
 
Yes, so let's say the nobles are captured. anyways, iit got me thinking, what if he manages to set up a succesfull dynasty? Where and what would the butterflies be? maybe an earlier united Netherlands?

Well in the time of Floris V was around a lot more local dynasties, like the duke of Brabant, Limburg & Lothier, the count of Gelre, count of Flanders, count of Luxemburg were around. They might end up in the hands of one (including the counts of Holland & Zeeland) of these houses, but due to butterflies it would be too soon to tell.

Another chance for the counts of Holland was the father of Floris V, Roman-German (anti-) king count Willem II of Holland, which would mean he isn't killed by the West Frisians (West Frisia is now a part of the province North Holland).
 
He did indeed had a claim on the scottish throne. If England was had supported this claim, he might have succeeded.

Just checked... Floris's claim was somehow vague and through female line... I dont see why English should support him... the Bruces and the Baliols had way much higher claims...
 
Just checked... Floris's claim was somehow vague and through female line... I dont see why English should support him... the Bruces and the Baliols had way much higher claims...

There were 14 claimants in total, however Floris was among the four serious claimants (Bruce, Balliol, de Hastings and Floris). OTOH he claimed earl David of Huntingdon had forfeited his hereditary rights to the throne in exchange for a land grant by king William the Lion, which would have made Floris the undisputed candidate; he had 10 months to provide proof, but disputed documents only appeared later (these are currently kept in The Hague).
 
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