What if faster Ju88?

[Deleted member 1487]

Somewhat riffing off of this thread:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=245475&highlight=ju88

What if the Ju88 stuck closer to the original design, in that it didn't modify much of the original V3 concepts?
That would make it very much like the Ju88S:
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_ju88S.html
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/bomber/junkers-ju-88s.asp

The description:

Performance was improved by removing any items that would cause unnecessary drag, such as the dive brakes and external bomb racks.
The original glass nose was replaced by a smooth transparent nose cap, modelled on the solid nose used on the fighter variants.
The ventral gondola was removed, and the crew reduced to three. All but the most important protective armour was removed, and the defensive armament was reduced to one MG 131 in the rear cockpit position.

So it would be a streamlined version that would not have the dive bombing requirement and thus no modifications that add around 1000kg of weight, would have no drag inducing ventral gondola, no fourth crew member, nor bubble nose that increased drag.
Over all loaded but not with bombs this version would weight about 9000kg, 1,500kg less than the production version in 1939.

The V3 prototype with 1000hp engines reach 323 mph full speed and the up-engined (1200hp) V5 version carrying 2,000kg bomb load reached about a similar speed, averaging 313mph for 1,200 miles.

So assuming the Ju88A1 was a three crew, non-dive bombing version that was thus much lighter, but still had external hardpoints for bomb racks as needed, what would this mean for its survivability?
IIRC it could achieve a 30-40 degree dive before the dive bombing requirement was added, so it could still dive to escape fighters.

With around 330mph full speed with bombs (just internal, obviously external loads would slow it down) compared to the OTL 280mph full speed Ju88A1, how would the extra 50 mph help the Ju88 in the Battle of Britain or even the Battle of France?

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Be harder for the Hurricanes to deal with. The Ju-88 would top out (with it's internal bomb load) the max. speed of the Hawker. After dumping its bombs, it could outrun 'em. Going by your specs, of course.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Be harder for the Hurricanes to deal with. The Ju-88 would top out (with it's internal bomb load) the max. speed of the Hawker. After dumping its bombs, it could outrun 'em. Going by your specs, of course.

As I recall the Hurricanes were tasked with fighting the bombers, while the Spitfires had to handle the escorts. This would make it very hard to hit.
Unloaded it woud be able to challenge the Spitefire in a sprint.

And yeah, its hard to estimate the actual output, but as far as I can tell the spec is pretty close to what it should be able to achieve with the lessened weight and lower drag.

 

[LostCosmonaut]

So , it would basically be an early version of the Mosquito, relying on it's speed to avoid interception rather than defensive armament?

How well would this airframe handle engine upgrades later in its service life?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

So , it would basically be an early version of the Mosquito, relying on it's speed to avoid interception rather than defensive armament?

How well would this airframe handle engine upgrades later in its service life?

Pretty much what I was shooting for.
The airframe should be able to handle engine upgrades without much of a problem, but would require heavier, larger wings, just like IOTL with the Ju88A4 and A5. If needed the frame could be strengthened, but it wouldn't need to be as much as IOTL for the diving requirement, which IIRC was deleted by 1941 anyway because the skin couldn't handle it. Plus with stronger engines it will get faster.

 

[Just Leo]

The Mosquito was designed for 500lb bombs in its single bomb bay. The Ju-88 was designed to take 28 50kg bombs in 3 separate bays. The compartments were divided by wing through structure, and not open to modification, except downwards. I have found no reference to larger single bombs being carried internally, but maybe it's just me. The external racks made up for this lack of bomb versatility.

Giving the Ju-88 speed comparable to the Me-110 but without the Me's capability of maneuver would be so good.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Giving the Ju-88 speed comparable to the Me-110 but without the Me's capability of maneuver would be so good.

So good? Why would the maneuverability matter to the Ju88, which is already more maneuverable than the He111 or any other bomber in its class until the Mosquito. Also maneuverability increased significantly with the wing improvements in the A4. AFAIK diving and climbing aren't affected by the maneuverability otherwise (diving within the limits of the level bombing version here).
Also the external racks allowing it to carry up to 2000kg of bombs including the larger sizes would still give it higher speed than the HE111, which could only handle up to 250kg bombs internally.

 

[AdA]

Hi Wiking.

The Ju88 in it's faster original form would have been ideally suited for attacking high priority targets, like radar stations, airfiels, etc. if mixed with larger raids by slower bombers and protected by small groups of fighters, this would be hard to intercept, and a powerful force multiplier.
If this came as a surprise, with the battle of France being fought mostly by older types, it would give the LW and edge at a critical time, much like the Tupolev SB gave the republicans and edge in the SCW until the introduction of faster fighters.
The RAF would probably need to assign some Spitfire Squadrons to chasing the Ju88 on the return trip, diverting Spitfires from the critical air superiority task.

 

[phx1138]

The Ju88 in it's faster original form would have been ideally suited for attacking high priority targets, like radar stations, airfiels, etc.

On intruder ops against Bomber Command bases, this could have serious butterflies on the bomber offensive...

 

[Deleted member 1487]

On intruder ops against Bomber Command bases, this could have serious butterflies on the bomber offensive...

Especially for nightfighters in general. The faster Ju88s can keep up with faster RAF bombers as time goes on and German engines get more powerful.
I don't know if the Ju88 will ever be able to get up to the speed of the Mosquito, but it will come a lot closer than in OTL, which still was somewhat competitive at cruising speed.

Keep in mind too that this Ju88 will be easier, quicker, and cheaper to make than the OTL version. With more crew survivability more crews will survive through 1940-1, which will have significant knock on effects, as the Kampfflieger will retain more experience and have more men to rotate into combat, potentially being able to rest some. The coupling of more aircraft with more crews will matter significantly (though not war winningly without major changes in strategy) on the Eastern Front, if not in the Mediterranean and in the naval war.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

How about the Schnellbomber concept including that the Ju88 include minimal amounts of strategic materials, leading it to be constructed of wood like the Mosquito? I think that would save about 1000kg more of weight.
That should add about 20mph more of speed.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

How about the Schnellbomber concept including that the Ju88 include minimal amounts of strategic materials, leading it to be constructed of wood like the Mosquito? I think that would save about 1000kg more of weight.
That should add about 20mph more of speed.

Except the Germans in WW2 had problems in fabricating composite wooden materials for high performance aircraft.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Except the Germans in WW2 had problems in fabricating composite wooden materials for high performance aircraft.

Because the glue factory in Wuppertal was bombed in 1943. Starting it in 1939 and expanding the glue production in the Eastern parts of Germany would avoid that problem entirely.

 

[Just Leo]

Because the glue factory in Wuppertal was bombed in 1943. Starting it in 1939 and expanding the glue production in the Eastern parts of Germany would avoid that problem entirely.

Half the Moskito prototypes built with good glue crashed on landing. It seems fair to say that they had trouble fabricating.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Half the Moskito prototypes built with good glue crashed on landing. It seems fair to say that they had trouble fabricating.

Looking back at the history of Ta-154 testing, you are right.
So scrap the wood idea. What about the rest of what I said prior?

 

[Just Leo]

Looking back at the history of Ta-154 testing, you are right.
So scrap the wood idea. What about the rest of what I said prior?

You said a lot of things. You said that Germany should prioritize as its medium bomber one which cannot carry bombs bigger than 50kg internally, although it can carry 28 of those. External bombs slow the aircraft down. Bombers carrying bombs fly at a cruising speed, not maximum speed. Otherwise, they would run out of fuel before they reached the target, or home, whichever. You have changed an aircraft with poor defensive armament into an aircraft with even poorer defensive armament, while it does not have the capability to avoid interception by both principal RAF fighters. The primary advantage of the Ju-88 was its ability to gain good speed in a shallow dive upon bomb release, for its return to France. This will be helped even more. However, it still remains the bomber shot down in greatest quantity in the BoB, unless Leigh-Mallory's concept of Big Wing becomes the rule. Why did He-111s have a better sortie/loss ratio? Why did the He-111 soldier on throughout the war? Probably because it was a better medium bomber, and a tougher target. It had nowhere near the versatility of the Ju-88 as a combat aircraft, but it was a better medium bomber. The bomb bay on the Junkers that was so poor for bomb stowage turned into a marvellous place for ammunition for belly cannons, and long range fuel tanks. That's all I have for now.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

The main thing though, is with wiking's improvements, the JU88s could dump their bombs and break from an engagement at speed. It doesn't make them better bombers, just lowers attrition and increases crew survivability. During the BofB, anyway, when bombers were mainly contending against Hurricanes.

 

[AdA]

You said a lot of things. You said that Germany should prioritize as its medium bomber one which cannot carry bombs bigger than 50kg internally, although it can carry 28 of those. External bombs slow the aircraft down. Bombers carrying bombs fly at a cruising speed, not maximum speed. Otherwise, they would run out of fuel before they reached the target, or home, whichever. You have changed an aircraft with poor defensive armament into an aircraft with even poorer defensive armament, while it does not have the capability to avoid interception by both principal RAF fighters. The primary advantage of the Ju-88 was its ability to gain good speed in a shallow dive upon bomb release, for its return to France. This will be helped even more. However, it still remains the bomber shot down in greatest quantity in the BoB, unless Leigh-Mallory's concept of Big Wing becomes the rule. Why did He-111s have a better sortie/loss ratio? Why did the He-111 soldier on throughout the war? Probably because it was a better medium bomber, and a tougher target. It had nowhere near the versatility of the Ju-88 as a combat aircraft, but it was a better medium bomber. The bomb bay on the Junkers that was so poor for bomb stowage turned into a marvellous place for ammunition for belly cannons, and long range fuel tanks. That's all I have for now.

Wich is why they would be useful for small scale raids dropping sticks of 50kg bombs on radar stations, airfields, etc. with bases in France they could probably go full speed nearly all the way in and out and have enough fuel.
But I agree that the Ju88 was a perfectable design. The nearly contemporary Pe2 could do 336mph, carry 100kg bombs internally, dive bomb, and was tough as nails.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

You said a lot of things. You said that Germany should prioritize as its medium bomber one which cannot carry bombs bigger than 50kg internally, although it can carry 28 of those.

I said it should be prioritized in another thread, but IOTL it was scheduled to replaced the HE111 and Do17, but the mismanagement of production IOTL prevented the HE111 and Do17 from being phased out on time. This was the Ju88 that had the same limitations of OTL.

External bombs slow the aircraft down. Bombers carrying bombs fly at a cruising speed, not maximum speed. Otherwise, they would run out of fuel before they reached the target, or home, whichever.

Yes they do and the Ju88 was faster even with external ordnance than the He111 was with just internal bomb loads. Yes, I am aware that cruise speed is what matters most of the time, but full speed can help get a bomber out of a jam. Just like the gazelle doesn't run everywhere, it can sprint when necessary. However even the cruise speed is improved for a lighter, more streamlined aircraft.

You have changed an aircraft with poor defensive armament into an aircraft with even poorer defensive armament, while it does not have the capability to avoid interception by both principal RAF fighters. The primary advantage of the Ju-88 was its ability to gain good speed in a shallow dive upon bomb release, for its return to France. This will be helped even more.

The increased speed would give the Ju88 the ability to run if necessary, an option it didn't have IOTL...as even its top speed was well below that of the Hurricane. Here it would match it, allowing the Ju88 to outrun/outpace enemy fighters. As it was the defensive armament didn't deter fighters anyway, so why not go for more speed when there aren't enough guns to defend yourself anyway?

However, it still remains the bomber shot down in greatest quantity in the BoB, unless Leigh-Mallory's concept of Big Wing becomes the rule.

Greatest quantity, but what was the loss rate per mission compared to the other types? Where the Ju88s used on the most hazardous missions because the Luftwaffe thought they had the best chance for survival? Maybe they had the best serviceability, so were sent on more missions, exposing them to greater risk? Also remember that the Ju88 was somewhat tricky to land, so perhaps its combat losses alone aren't counted in the losses rates, which could include accidents too.

Why did He-111s have a better sortie/loss ratio? Why did the He-111 soldier on throughout the war? Probably because it was a better medium bomber, and a tougher target. It had nowhere near the versatility of the Ju-88 as a combat aircraft, but it was a better medium bomber. The bomb bay on the Junkers that was so poor for bomb stowage turned into a marvellous place for ammunition for belly cannons, and long range fuel tanks. That's all I have for now.

Perhaps because fatigued pilots had trouble landing the Ju88, like the Me109? If there were more pilots and aircraft that sort of fatigue wouldn't creep up as badly. The Ju88 was scheduled to replace the He111, but it soldiered on because of Udet's mismanagement of production, which left Ju88 production stunted and the Do17 & He111 in production just because there weren't enough bombers being produced.

Yes the He111 had more machine guns, but it was more difficult to produce, had lower production, required more crew, and proved less survivable as the war went on.

I appreciate your response, but I disagree about the HE111 being more survivable than the Ju88, as the statistics we often see online about the HE111 vs. Ju88 loss rates in the Battle of Britain leave out the details of those losses and leave out everything that happened prior and later.

Wich is why they would be useful for small scale raids dropping sticks of 50kg bombs on radar stations, airfields, etc. with bases in France they could probably go full speed nearly all the way in and out and have enough fuel.
But I agree that the Ju88 was a perfectable design. The nearly contemporary Pe2 could do 336mph, carry 100kg bombs internally, dive bomb, and was tough as nails.

At night the external bomb loads were perfectly acceptable for the Ju88, as it didn't need to worry about speed then.

The main thing though, is with wiking's improvements, the JU88s could dump their bombs and break from an engagement at speed. It doesn't make them better bombers, just lowers attrition and increases crew survivability. During the BofB, anyway, when bombers were mainly contending against Hurricanes.

That's the kicker: lower loss rates, plus more crew survival, and easier production, means a more formidable Luftwaffe after the BoB. That has all sorts of consequences, especially if the Ju88's speed stays competitive with better engines. Better/faster night fighters make the lives of the RAF much harder, as does a Destroyer heavy fighter version in 1942-3 for the USAAF.