What if Ernst Rohm tried to overthrow the German government in 1934?

Ernest Rohm was one of Hitler's closest allies, having being friends with him ever since the early days of the Nazi Party. He was placed in command of the SA, the paramilitary arm of the Nazi Party. However, as the SA grew in power, he grew in ambition. Compared to other Nazis, he was a radical, going so as far as to call Hitler a traitor in a drunken tirade and demanding control of Germany's army, which if Rohm had his way, would've been combined with the SA. Unlike his friend and leader, he held onto the pre-Beer Hall Putsch idea of violent revolution.

Many of Germany's political and military elite despised the SA and Rohm in particular. They feared that Rohm would launch a revolution to overthrow the political establishment. Hitler dealt with this potential threat by unleashing the SS onto their SA counterparts, purging the group of Rohm and his clique in the Night of the Long Knives

But what if Rohm had attempted a coup de'tat against the German government in 1934, the same year as the Night of the Long Knives?
 
I think it would mean a short and very brutal civil war. The Heer (including the Schwarzer Reichswehr) would side with the government, which means the SA, about 500 000 men which almost completely lack arms face about 300 000 well-trained troops, gendarmerie and reservists. The SA could perhaps gold a few city centers for a few weeks before beign crushed.
 
I think it would mean a short and very brutal civil war. The Heer (including the Schwarzer Reichswehr) would side with the government, which means the SA, about 500 000 men which almost completely lack arms face about 300 000 well-trained troops, gendarmerie and reservists. The SA could perhaps gold a few city centers for a few weeks before beign crushed.
What about the Communists? They were as I understand it quite well armed and hunkering down for the Nazi system's imminent collapse.

Would they rise up in this scenario? Would they actually be able to accomplish anything?


In terms of the right wingers, like the National Front, I think they'd probably rally behind Hitler given that Rohm would look far more frightening and extremist.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I think it would mean a short and very brutal civil war. The Heer (including the Schwarzer Reichswehr) would side with the government, which means the SA, about 500 000 men which almost completely lack arms face about 300 000 well-trained troops, gendarmerie and reservists. The SA could perhaps gold a few city centers for a few weeks before beign crushed.
Wasn't the SA 3 million man-strong during this time, though?
 
Wasn't the SA 3 million man-strong during this time, though?

Yeah, the SA had about 3 million men in its ranks in mid-1934, although if you include the Steel Helmets and other paramilitary groups, that amount increases to over 4.5 million.
 
Yeah, the SA had about 3 million men in its ranks in mid-1934, although if you include the Steel Helmets and other paramilitary groups, that amount increases to over 4.5 million.

True, however how many of these where committed Rohm supporters especially with his stated policy of continual revolution. I suspect many, perhaps the majority where either Hitler supporters or conservative-right types instead of hardened socialists like Rohm.
 
The SA have a lot of members, yes, but only about 500 000 have any kind of weapons training or are able to fight. Most are just card-carriers.
 
Yeah, the SA had about 3 million men in its ranks in mid-1934, although if you include the Steel Helmets and other paramilitary groups, that amount increases to over 4.5 million.

True, however how many of these where committed Rohm supporters especially with his stated policy of continual revolution. I suspect many, perhaps the majority where either Hitler supporters or conservative-right types instead of hardened socialists like Rohm.

The Steel Helmet Organization had been forced to affiliate with the SA, as had several other groups, by nazi policy. The SH leaders of course resented this, as did many members. A significant part of the SA either resented Rohm or were indifferent to his leadership. Even among the half million armed SA there were factions. Rohms socialist policies did not sit well with many members who had a more 'conservative' outlook.
 
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Redbeard

Banned
In a coup where Röhm stands as the one having Hitler taken away, Röhm and SA has very few chances. The combination of missing legitimacy and a lot of other strong forces not sharing his interests will be too much. If OTOH Röhm can stage a situation where the army/big capital/SS are seen as responsible for the death of Hitler then Röhm might be able to claim to be the one carrying on the true Nazi heritage vs the traitors. That might just give him time to consolidate enough to start dismantling the army and other establishment institutions. The more and longer he succeeds the more Germany will be like one of those loony left-wing dictatorships with heavy suppression and deteriorating economy. By late 1930s the neighbours of Germany, lead by France and Poland, kick in the door and the whole house come tumbling down.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
In a coup where Röhm stands as the one having Hitler taken away, Röhm and SA has very few chances. The combination of missing legitimacy and a lot of other strong forces not sharing his interests will be too much. If OTOH Röhm can stage a situation where the army/big capital/SS are seen as responsible for the death of Hitler then Röhm might be able to claim to be the one carrying on the true Nazi heritage vs the traitors. That might just give him time to consolidate enough to start dismantling the army and other establishment institutions. The more and longer he succeeds the more Germany will be like one of those loony left-wing dictatorships with heavy suppression and deteriorating economy. By late 1930s the neighbours of Germany, lead by France and Poland, kick in the door and the whole house come tumbling down.
Question--wouldn't Rohm's homosexuality hurt his chances of seizing power in Germany?
 

Redbeard

Banned
Question--wouldn't Rohm's homosexuality hurt his chances of seizing power in Germany?

If generally known yes, but back then politicians in general had much more private life than now, incl. opportunity for various sexual activities not generally accepted.

I guess most in the Nazi leadership knew well about Röhm's preferences many years before 1934, but it belonged to subjects "not really talked about". If Röhm succeed in consolidating his power after a "Hitler is dead" scenario I guess it would have remained so, but if he doesn't it would be a fine basis for a coup de grace.

If he consolidate I'm not sure I would like to see how Nazi uniforms develop - it might be very - distinct...
 
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