So in 1483, Edward IV of England and Margaret Beaufort had just completed talks on allowing Henry Tudor (later King Henry VII) to return to England, with him being restored to his Earldom, being made the heir to his Mother's estates and even potentially being married to a daughter of Edward IV. However, when Edward IV died the deal just fell through and Edward V was usurped by his Uncle Richard III, who was later killed in battle against Henry Tudor, which resulted in the rise of the Tudor dynasty. But what if Edward IV lived a few months longer? Let's say Edward IV lives right until the end of 1483, does Richard III still pull off his stunt? Or would he not risk it? What becomes of Henry Tudor now?
What if Edward IV lived to the end of 1483?
- Thread starter RedKing
- Start date
By end of 1483, Elizabeth of York and Maximilian of Austria's marriage is likely finalized. Which means that Dickon either needs to be insanely stupid or stupidly insane to try his OTL stunt. Max won't be able to be bought off (like James IV) with the promise of Margaret of Clarence or a de la Pole, which means that in all likelihood, Dickon leaves the crown where it is. After all, its one thing to brand a widow and her children bastards, its another to say that the wife of the (theoretically) most powerful man in Christendom, who also has a battlefield reputation, is a bastard.
As for Henry Tudor getting one of Ned's daughters, I strongly doubt it. By 1483 all except Bridget were spoken for. Which means either one of Edward's bastards daughters or a half-Wydeville niece.
PS: the scenario has (more or less) the same outcome if Mary of Burgundy doesn't die or has a brother or Mary's second son isn't stillborn but Mary still dies. The minute Elizabeth of York marries abroad, Richard's opportunity is gone. He has no (legitimate) daughters and only one "royal" niece (Margaret of Clarence). Neither France nor Austria will sit back and watch Liz be branded a bastard.
@mcdnab @isabella , care to weigh in?
When Edward dies, Richard still feels threatened by the Woodvilles? If there is so, he goes ahead with something. Who knows, perhaps Henry Tudor falls in Richard's purge.
I doubt Bridget would be taken out of the convent, so maybe one of the de la Pole nieces for Henry? Elizabeth de la Pole would do nicely.
As in Tudor becoming King? Well if Richard III usurps the throne, Tudor could be arrested/killed, which leads to a Riccardian England, unless Tudor has a son who escapes Richard’s clutches.
Henry has to go back to England to marry (theoretically). In all likelihood, Dickon does to Tudor what Harry did to the de la Poles (keep him under arrest for the remainder of his life) and give custody of Maggie B's grandson to someone like Lovell or Catesby
I doubt he’d do it if Elizabeth is married abroad, for the same reasons @Kellan Sullivan said, but if he does Tudor will either become a member of an anti-Riccardian group or be captured by Richard.
Tudor's land he holds would be primarily in the north no? It's reasonable he initially winds up in the pro Richard camp if only because everyone else is doing it. Heck could see him playing Stanley during Buckingham's Rebellion.
Yes, they are mostly in the North, though his future inheritance is in the south.
Just to save his skin? Yes, but that didn't stop his Father from going against the will of the Northerners.
That would be super cool to see!
Wait I thought it was Warwick and only Edmund de la Pole (when Henry eventually got him) who were kept in house arrest for the rest of their lives. I thought he tried to reconcile with the rest?
Nope. Edmund was in the Tower, executed in 1513 on the dying orders of Henry VII, alongside his brother Humphrey. William de la Pole, who should've been 4e duke of Suffolk, was kept in the Tower until his death of natural causes in 1539 (AIUI he remains the holder of the record of the person longest incarcerated in the Tower). Richard, the ACTUAL 4th duke of Suffolk (the so-called White Rose) escaped to France and was killed at Pavia.
Oh, I always thought he had reconciled with them for some reason. Guess I got that one wrong.
If Edward IV lived until the end of the year is likely who three big game changer events had already happened: Elizabeth of York will have likely married Maximilian of Austria (the wedding made too much sense for both sides for NOT happening if Edward IV lived slightly longer) securing her brother’s crown (because Maximilian has also Lancastrian blood, being a descendant of John of Gaunt and Blanche of Lancaster’s eldest daughter), Henry Tudor would have returned, reconciled and possibly married a bride suggested by Edward IV (Elizabeth de la Pole, Cecily or Isabel Bourchier, Elizabeth Stafford, possibly Eleanor Spencer or also a sister of his first fiancée) and George Neville is already dead, forcing on Edward a definitive decision of the attribution of the Neville male line holdings, who are in possession of Gloucester but now belong by right to the still underage baron Latimer. Elizabeth in Burgundy is more than enough for stopping any play for the crown by Gloucester and persuade Stillington (or Catesby) to keep his mouth shut on the Eleanor Talbot matter... With Elizabeth married to the worst possible rival for Richard, trying such stunt would be pretty idiotic (I used that plot line in King Edward’s Great Matter and Richard III was clearly a stupid in a complete delusion of omnipotence)
Last edited:
Wait who?! If this is Henry Tudor you're referring to I don't recall him being betrothed prior to Elizabeth of York (unless she's the person you're referring to).
I actually like this match for some reason and I honestly don't know why.
He was engaged to Maud Herbert, the eldest daughter of his warden. She is already long married to Northumberland, but some of her younger sisters are still free
Maybe because she is the better (and closest to the crown) match who Tudor can realistically get in a Yorkist England?
Really? I know he lived in William Herbert’s household for a bit but I never heard of this one before!
Eh, wouldn’t say she’s the closest he could get. Elizabeth, Cecily and Bridget of York were discussed, and Cecily’s prospective husband at this point (according to Wikipedia) is Alexander, Duke of Albany, which seems quite iffy to me. Though Elizabeth de la Pole is the easiest to make happen if Edward IV doesn’t want to damage his diplomatic goals.
Half offers, same as George Neville. Wouldn't happen in hell unless E4/E5 get high before dealing with Tudor's marriage.
He's the English backed claimant to the Scottish throne and IIRC in effective control of government at that point tho @VVD0D95 may know better.
Really? I have seen several people make timelines with it going through, and the Bridget offer seems perfectly plausible since she was so young and far back in the line of succession. I do agree EOY is a stretch if Maximilian is offering his hand, do COY seems plausible.
Really? I guess that makes more sense then, though if his death isn't butterflied things could change.
Explain me for what reason Edward IV would give one of his daughters to someone like Henry Tudor who was way too low ranking for them.
Albany would get Cecily in the unlikely case in which he conquered the Scottish crown and get an annulment of his current marriage so that would still made Cecily as Queen of Scotland. In any case Albany was a legitimate younger son of a King so of an higher rank than Tudor.
Exactly, nothing who Edward IV had any intention to keep. Likely that were mostly Margaret Beaufort‘s dreams.
Exactly, and in any case such kind of entanglement would NOT exclude a Cecily-James IV’s match if the latter kept his crown.
Elizabeth and Cecily are destined to marry rulers, at the worst powerful princes (read younger sons of Kings/rulers), Bridget was destined to the Church well before her father’s death.
Pretty unlikely that will go anywhere. More likely who, after the failure of Alexander to take the crown of Scotland, Cecily’s betrothal to the future James IV will reinstated again. That was simply part of the Anglo-Scottish politics (if Edward IV and James III got along Cecily was engaged to the younger James, if Edward was supporting Albany’s claim then Cecily’s engagement also needed to be switched)
Let's just ignore the whole claim issue, because that's a whole other can of worms, but it guarantees Tudor's loyalty.
Really? Because I have seen several people say these were genuinely discussed.
But would James III really agree to a match with a man who literally tried to overthrow him? A French Proxy could easily take Cecily's place.
As does say a Bourchier, but one has Edward's daughter become queen and the other doesn't. And it most certainly does not definitively do so.
Does James want to keep his throne? If he has any sense he'll marry his son to Cecily otherwise he'll get yeeted by Albany.