What if Edward II married Gwenllian of Wales?

[Peppe]

In 1283, Edward I conquered Wales, and shortly after send the daughters of it's last 2 independent rulers into confinement for the rest of their lives, most of them had by the last one and 1 had by his brother, Llywelyn, with the daughter of Simon de Montfort, with the girl being only a year old.

In the following year, Edward had a son, named Edward, and months later said boy became his heir when his brother, Alphonso, died at age 10.

Now, I don't know when Edward's betrothal to Isabella of France occurred, but lets say that here it doesn't occurs, and Longshanks decides for marrying the heir of the "Last Prince of Wales" (as the reason why her and her cousins were sent to nunneries was because they could pass the inheritance).

Why? I don't know, let's say a rebellion in Wales so extreme it was a real fear they could gain their independence again, and he decided for it even if he has a beef with her maternal family. How? The 2 of them are only 2 years apart in age, and she is technically still royalty. When? Toddler age or early childhood

What could it mean for the reign of Edward II or the Plantagenets? And (if the subsequent centuries evolve in a relatively similar manner to OTL) what could it represent to the relations between the English and the Welsh?

 

[Dr.Evil]

No 100 Years War and England will gain its "insular identity" far earlier. Edward II. could turn out quite different but I guess not too much as his overall experiences would probably still be the same so you could end up with a huge rebellion. I guess though his Welsh wench can't compete with the She-Wolf of France and doesn't lead that rebellion which does e.g. prevent Mortimer from seizing power and sees a more traditional regency or even Edward II. with limited power.

Wales will probably tied even closer to England and maybe see a loss in Celtic identity/language.

Whats more interesting in this scenario: whom will Isabella of France marry?

 

[Ivan Lupo]

Had Llewellyn not decided to support his brother Dafydd's 2nd rebellion, he may have had the opportunity to perhaps present himself instead as Edward's loyal vassal and ally. This really would have been the only way to entertain this type of marriage, which does make a good sense of political sense. The fact that Llewellyn married Eleanor de Montfort in the first place helped touch off Edward's first Welsh invasion years ago, as he was so opposed to the marriage that he actually captured and imprisoned Eleanor until after Llewellyn was defeated.

Let's say that Llewellyn does reinvent himself as a loyal vassal coming forward, Edward would still need to make a lot of concessions towards some of his most stalwart allies he ever had during his life, the various Marcher Lords who had always been enemies to the Welsh. Edward needs them on his side at all times and marrying his son Edward to Gwenllian risks alienating them.

 

[kasumigenx]

Perhaps if Alfonso of Chester is king that is more possible.

 

[Dr.Evil]

Perhaps if Alfonso of Chester is king that is more possible.

You mean Edward II. elder brother right?
I think this does slightly work better but not with Alphonso as king but still Prince of Wales.. And again it is problematic if the brother of the new (symbolic) ruler of Wales is married to the daughter of the previous ruler. It basically asks Edward to start a rebellion for Welsh independence later on.

 

[kasumigenx]

You mean Edward II. elder brother right?
I think this does slightly work better but not with Alphonso as king but still Prince of Wales.. And again it is problematic if the brother of the new (symbolic) ruler of Wales is married to the daughter of the previous ruler. It basically asks Edward to start a rebellion for Welsh independence later on.

Just annex the lands of Gwenlian to the throne and have Edward assigned a different Duchy.

 

[Dr.Evil]

Just annex the lands of Gwenlian to the throne and have Edward assigned a different Duchy.

That doesn't really help the problem as her claim would still be there and if you don't use her to integrate Wales better in the kingdom then why marry her at all?

 

[isabella]

You mean Edward II. elder brother right?
I think this does slightly work better but not with Alphonso as king but still Prince of Wales… And again it is problematic if the brother of the new (symbolic) ruler of Wales is married to the daughter of the previous ruler. It basically asks Edward to start a rebellion for Welsh independence later on.

Well we can have the King naming his younger son (who was born in Galles) Prince of Wales (as appanage under the crown of England) instead of his heir... Edward has no obligation to transform Prince of Wales in the title of the heir of the English crown...
Giving that title to his younger son and marrying him to the daughter of their last independent ruler (the girl had good enough blood for that at least from her maternal side) and keep them close would help a lot in making Wales more English (and would take away many chances of rebellion)

 

[Merrow]

Well we can have the King naming his younger son (who was born in Galles) Prince of Wales (as appanage under the crown of England) instead of his heir... Edward has no obligation to transform Prince of Wales in the title of the heir of the English crown...
Giving that title to his younger son and marrying him to the daughter of their last independent ruler (the girl had good enough blood for that at least from her maternal side) and keep them close would help a lot in making Wales more English (and would take away many chances of rebellion)

But wouldn't a heredity prince title be problematic. I don't think there was any precedent at the time for titles with a royal style which could be passed on.

Would it only be a prince title for the younger son's lifetime? And if so, and the title was later degraded wouldn't Wales find issue with the fact that they no longer have any pretence of being a Kingdom and are effectively reduced to an Earldom (Dukes weren't around until Edward III)

 

[Dr.Evil]

Well we can have the King naming his younger son (who was born in Galles) Prince of Wales (as appanage under the crown of England) instead of his heir... Edward has no obligation to transform Prince of Wales in the title of the heir of the English crown...
Giving that title to his younger son and marrying him to the daughter of their last independent ruler (the girl had good enough blood for that at least from her maternal side) and keep them close would help a lot in making Wales more English (and would take away many chances of rebellion)

I think Longshanks would have to love Edward very much to grant him Wales as an appanage and make him a vassal to his firstborn son. Something similar happened with Jean II and Phillip le Hardi and it turned disastrous and resulted in the Armagnac-Burgundian Civil War.

 

[isabella]

But wouldn't a heredity prince title be problematic. I don't think there was any precedent at the time for titles with a royal style which could be passed on.

Would it only be a prince title for the younger son's lifetime? And if so, and the title was later degraded wouldn't Wales find issue with the fact that they no longer have any pretence of being a Kingdom and are effectively reduced to an Earldom (Dukes weren't around until Edward III)

I think Longshanks would have to love Edward very much to grant him Wales as an appanage and make him a vassal to his firstborn son. Something similar happened with Jean II and Phillip le Hardi and it turned disastrous and resulted in the Armagnac-Burgundian Civil War.

Possible but with a surviving Alphonso that would be the best way for dealing with Wales... plus Wales is destined to be trouble under any scenario so giving its rule to the son born in Wales and marrying to the heiress of the native dynasty at least would guaranteed the assimilation of Wales to a England. Then maybe either Alphonso or his son die childless and Edward or his son/grandson inherit the English crown and complete the integration of Wales in England (establishing the title of Prince of Wales for the heir of England just a little later than OTL)

 

[Dr.Evil]

But it worked just fine OTL. The Welsh would always be a distinct group and be a bit of a wild card for the English Crown I guess. Really integrating the Welsh would probably require heavy settling.. I am not sure what to call the population Anglo-Norman?
It could certainly be done but not with just one marriage and some title shenanigans.

 

[piratedude]

plus Wales is destined to be trouble under any scenario so giving its rule to the son born in Wales and marrying to the heiress of the native dynasty at least would guaranteed the assimilation of Wales to a England.

Far from guaranteed. In fact, it sounds like a good opportunity for that son to go native, which is far more interesting imo. Especially if king Fonz still dies as you say and the anglo-norman lords now have to deal with a 'welsh' king

 

[redjirachi]

I guess though his Welsh wench can't compete with the She-Wolf of France and doesn't lead that rebellion

The Becky Gwenllian vs the Stacy She-Wolf of France

 

[Dr.Evil]

Far from guaranteed. In fact, it sounds like a good opportunity for that son to go native, which is far more interesting imo. Especially if king Fonz still dies as you say and the anglo-norman lords now have to deal with a 'welsh' king

Well that could be the time where one of the son in laws of Edward I. could step up and take a leading position in England.