What if Edmund Earl of Rutland lived?

No idea, to be honest. I'm researching the period for a planned TL of mine own. Mary's pretty young for him, but I'm sure if I ruled it out on age lines, somebody could provide a dozen contemporaneous matches with similar age disparities.

Indeed. the horde of butterflies released would be immense. No Aragonese - Castilian union. Does la Beltraneja inherit Castile? So many questions. Too many for me to answer, I think.

Hmm, with regards to Edmund, who would he marry then do you think if not Mary? Someone from England
 
Edmund of Rutland

If he (Edmund) got along with Edward IV and the Woodvilles, it makes the succession crisis following the death of Edward IV a lot more interesting (and complicated)! It is possible that Edmund may ally with the Woodvilles against Richard, or Edward IV may have Edmund named regent for Edward V. Or the Woodvilles may be able to take advantage of whatever competition between Edmund and Richard and initially stay in power. It is likely the Edward V and his brother Richard don't vanish in the Tower of London.
 
If he (Edmund) got along with Edward IV and the Woodvilles, it makes the succession crisis following the death of Edward IV a lot more interesting (and complicated)! It is possible that Edmund may ally with the Woodvilles against Richard, or Edward IV may have Edmund named regent for Edward V. Or the Woodvilles may be able to take advantage of whatever competition between Edmund and Richard and initially stay in power. It is likely the Edward V and his brother Richard don't vanish in the Tower of London.

If indeed Edward does marry Woodville. And there is nothing to suggest Gloucester would be named regent, as from what I've read Edward and Edmund got on quite well.
 
Hmm, with regards to Edmund, who would he marry then do you think if not Mary? Someone from England
Well, it very much depends on who is available. I don't know when they decided to become nuns, but one of the sisters of Francis II of Brittany would be interesting. that's in addition to any potential French, Burgundian or Iberian matches.
If he (Edmund) got along with Edward IV and the Woodvilles, it makes the succession crisis following the death of Edward IV a lot more interesting (and complicated)! It is possible that Edmund may ally with the Woodvilles against Richard, or Edward IV may have Edmund named regent for Edward V. Or the Woodvilles may be able to take advantage of whatever competition between Edmund and Richard and initially stay in power. It is likely the Edward V and his brother Richard don't vanish in the Tower of London.
I can't see this happening. I mean, even if Edward IV still dies on schedule then the landscape is totally different. For starters, that's a very big "if", seeing as the PoD is almost 25 years before that point. Secondly, if Edmund is alive, Richard is not the heir, even if he disposes of Edward's kids. If Edward still has boys, that is. Secondly, with a surviving Edward, who can say that Clarence will suffer his OTL fate? That needed a very specific set of circumstances. Even if Edward IV dies in exactly the same way at exactly the same time, the world is likely very different. For all we know, Warwick could still be knocking about! Edward of Westminster could be plotting in Lorraine, waiting to come home.

If Edmund survives, the 1469-71 period is likely to be changed utterly. If that happens, then 1483 is totally uncharted waters.
 
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Okay, especially if Edward's son marries Anne.
Yeah, that's the other option for a Breton match.

The seeing as I mentioned the old over mighty subject in the last post, Edmund surviving may also change Warwick's position at court. Yes, he's still fabulously wealthy, and the king's cousin, and very popular, but he's not necessarily the King's right hand man and most trusted advisor any more. I mean, Edward and Edmund grew up with each other. If the Edward-Warwick duopoly becomes a triumvirate, then the 1460s have the potential to be very different.
 
Yeah, that's the other option for a Breton match.

The seeing as I mentioned the old over mighty subject in the last post, Edmund surviving may also change Warwick's position at court. Yes, he's still fabulously wealthy, and the king's cousin, and very popular, but he's not necessarily the King's right hand man and most trusted advisor any more. I mean, Edward and Edmund grew up with each other. If the Edward-Warwick duopoly becomes a triumvirate, then the 1460s have the potential to be very different.

Most definitely, this could well mean Harry of Lancaster's chances at regaining the throne are slowly reduced to nothing more of a spec, does it not?
 
So if we go with Edward marrying Bonne of Savoy circa the early 1460s, Edmund marrying either Joanne of Aragon or perhaps A sister of Francis II Duke of Brittany. England will have some powerful allies right there. Then of course there is the fact that their sister is married to Charles the Bold as well.

Harry of Lancaster's chances of coming to back to power, are limited.
 
Well, it very much depends on who is available. I don't know when they decided to become nuns, but one of the sisters of Francis II of Brittany would be interesting. that's in addition to any potential French, Burgundian or Iberian matches.

I can't see this happening. I mean, even if Edward IV still dies on schedule then the landscape is totally different. For starters, that's a very big "if", seeing as the PoD is almost 25 years before that point. Secondly, if Edmund is alive, Richard is not the heir, even if he disposes of Edward's kids. If Edward still has boys, that is. Secondly, with a surviving Edward, who can say that Clarence will suffer his OTL fate? That needed a very specific set of circumstances. Even if Edward IV dies in exactly the same way at exactly the same time, the world is likely very different. For all we know, Warwick could still be knocking about! Edward of Westminster could be plotting in Lorraine, waiting to come home.

If Edmund survives, the 1469-71 period is likely to be changed utterly. If that happens, then 1483 is totally uncharted waters.


Totally, if the Woodville marriage still happened, then Edmund might be more in control of things, with some very powerful backers
 
So if we go with Edward marrying Bonne of Savoy circa the early 1460s, Edmund marrying either Joanne of Aragon or perhaps A sister of Francis II Duke of Brittany. England will have some powerful allies right there. Then of course there is the fact that their sister is married to Charles the Bold as well.

Harry of Lancaster's chances of coming to back to power, are limited.
Possibly. On the other hand, if Burgundy, Brittany and Aragon are all lined up behind Yorkist England, it would seem like France (and possibly Castile too) may well end up running interference for either Henry Vi or his son Edward. If Edward dies, then it's probably game over for any "Lancastrian cause".

In OTL's 1482-483, Henry Tudor was in negotiations with Edward IV to return to his rightful Honour of Richmond. If he lives until 1487 or so, then Edward V is an adult, Tudor is probably a loyal Earl of Richmond, and the Wars of the Roses may well be seen to have ended at Tewkesbury.

this is one of the reasons I still haven't started posting my TL. The butterflies in this period, both in England and beyond, are huge.
 
Possibly. On the other hand, if Burgundy, Brittany and Aragon are all lined up behind Yorkist England, it would seem like France (and possibly Castile too) may well end up running interference for either Henry Vi or his son Edward. If Edward dies, then it's probably game over for any "Lancastrian cause".

In OTL's 1482-483, Henry Tudor was in negotiations with Edward IV to return to his rightful Honour of Richmond. If he lives until 1487 or so, then Edward V is an adult, Tudor is probably a loyal Earl of Richmond, and the Wars of the Roses may well be seen to have ended at Tewkesbury.

this is one of the reasons I still haven't started posting my TL. The butterflies in this period, both in England and beyond, are huge.

Oh totally, I think this could be incredibly interesting. So would Edmund marry Joanne of Aragon or someone from Brittany do you think?
 
Indeed but what stops her husband from dying in a later battle?

What would cause him to die in a later battle? Many Lancastrian gentry were KIA in the wars, but most were not. And if Grey is not killed in 1460-61, i.e. the first half of the wars, Edward can't marry his widow in 1464, triggering the second half of the wars.
 
What would cause him to die in a later battle? Many Lancastrian gentry were KIA in the wars, but most were not. And if Grey is not killed in 1460-61, i.e. the first half of the wars, Edward can't marry his widow in 1464, triggering the second half of the wars.

Indeed, and I have acknowledged that.
 
So let's say Edward IV marries Bonne of Savoy, and Edmund marries Joanne of aragon those are who strong allies right there, what happens following that?
 
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