What if eastern slavs convert to another religion, like Catholicism or Islam ?

Wich Religion would you see the eastern slavs convert to ?


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In OTL, Russia wasn't considered very european by the western catholics, because of the religious difference among other things. And the region suffered some centuries from the islamic tatars incursion, who went as far as completely buren down Moscow.
Now what if the slavs didn't convert to Orthodox faith, and instead chose catholicism to get closer to european nations, or embrace Islam in order to avoid the Hordes raid and get support from various muslim actors, but face a much more hateful Europe, and probably som crusades (like the baltic ones).
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Catholicism is the nearest one other than the Byzantine Empire. Islam has no borders with them so I doubt an influence would be successful.
 
Most Western Ukrainians from Galicia (not to be confused with the Spanish one) are Catholics of the Eastern Rite, does that partially count? And if I recall correctly, the Ukrainian part of Poland-Lithuania and most of Belarus before Russian rule were once predominantly Greek Catholic after the Union of Brest.
 
Catholicism is the nearest one other than the Byzantine Empire. Islam has no borders with them so I doubt an influence would be successful.

Issue becomes that either Christianity or Islam will actively want to conquer it for religious reasons. The only way I could see a Jewish Rus' lasting is a pagan Lithuania sank providing an ally of necessity.
 
An unorthodox (ba dum tsss) idea -- Zoroastrian Iran manages to weather the storm of Islamic expansion, while Byzantium is still weakened by its struggles with the Caliphate. As a result, Zoroastrian thought spreads northward into the lands of the Rus, who adopt it after precedents of conflict with the Byzantine Empire and the Turks, forming a syncretic doctrine including both Slavic pagan beliefs and Zoroastrian principles and worldview.
 
I chose Catholicism because Islam was rejected for some reasons that did not apply to Catholicism. A matter prefering the Catholics ain't that hard.

Islam is optional if the Caliphate or a stronger Muslim Power borders them. If let say, the Pechenegs were all Islamized in the early to mid 10th century, the Rus borders a stronger Muslim State rather than just Volga Bulgaria.

Depending on the situation:

Catholic Rus:
- Could absorb/be absorbed by Poland. So you'd get a bigger Russia or bigger Poland
- The Baltic is likely to convert to Catholicism in the 12th century latest
- More marriages between the Rus and Scandinavian, Polish and Magyar neighbours. Finland may end up in Rus hands, rather than Scandinavian
- Might take advantage of the Crusades by wishing for one against the Baltic and the Cumans

Islamic Rus:
- Most likely to convert the Turkic Khanates around it and absorb it later on rather than the other way around. The Cumans might convert to Islam in the 12th century
- Target during the Crusades. Poland, Germans and ths Scandinavians might likely participate in the Baltics against the Muslim Rus and Pagan Balts
- Harder Polish expansion eastwards
- Mongolian invasion could likely make them Muslim before Ozbeg Khans reign (if he were to come in power)
- Stronger ties between the Rus and Central Asia
- Baltics is screwed due to constant warfare
 
It's frequently said that Islam was not a satisfactory option because of its prohibition of alcohol. I think this view requires some modification. The popular drink in Kievan Rus' was mead, with a fairly mild alcoholic content. (Wine was for the aristocrats only.) I suppose it might have been possible for Islamic authorities to tolerate mead--as they did kumiss, the fermented mare's milk which was the favorite drink of Turkic nomads. "Though the Koran prohibits wine — and the Kazak are faithful Muslims — the nomads at Timurlik said the Koran spoke only of wine, and so it was all right to enjoy kumiss." http://books.google.com/books?id=dXf1UJg-x20C&pg=PA148

In any event, entertaining as the "joy of the Rus" account in the Primary Chronicles may be, http://novaonline.nvcc.edu/eli/evans/his101/documents/chronicle.html [1] the real reason Vladimir decided on Orthodox Christianity was political. In 987 Vladimir put down a rebellion against the co-emperors of Byzantium, and demanded the hand of their sister Anna in return. They replied that they would agree only if Vladimir converted to Christianity. (Even after he converted, though, they tried to put the marriage off. Only the Rus' seizure of the Byzantine-held Crimean city of Cherson finally put an end to the Byzantines' stalling.) IMO, given the influence of Byzantium and given the fact that Orthodox Christianity had existed among the Rus' even before Vladimir's conversion, Orthodoxy was always most likely to be the religion the Rus' would choose after abandoning paganism.

[1] "Vladimir was visited by Bulgars of Muslim faith, who said, "Though you are a wise and prudent prince, you have no religion. Adopt our faith and revere Mahomet." Vladimir inquired about the nature of their religion. They replied that they believed in God, and that Mahomet instructed them to practice circumcision, to eat no pork, to drink no wine and, after death, promised them complete fulfillment of their carnal desires. "Mahomet," they claimed, "will give each man seventy fair women. He may choose one fair one, and upon that woman Mahomet will confer the charms of them all, and she shall be his wife. Mahomet then promises that one may then satisfy every desire, but whoever is poor in this world will be no different in the next." They also spoke other false things which out of modesty may not be written down. Vladimir listened to them, for he was fond of women and indulgence, regarding what he heard with pleasure, but circumcision and abstinence from pork and wine were disagreeable to him. "Drinking," he said, " is the joy of the Rus. We cannot exist without that pleasure."" I would really like to learn what those "other false things which out of modesty may not be written down" were...
 
Catholic Rus' could merge with Poland at some point (IOTL there were several chances of Polish-Muscovite unions ruined by religious obstacles, ITTL without barrier of religion marriages between Polish and Ruthenian dynasties should be more frequent, thus chances for union would also increase).
 
FWIW at the time of conversion, the early Russian princes weren't even aware of the Schism between Orthodox and Catholic. The presence of some saints and feasts in the yearly calendar attests that.

If there was such a thing as eastern rite Catholicism in the 11th c. (so that Rus could still import Greek priests), then I see no obstacles at all to Russia becoming a kind of Catholic. (It was a similar situation with the very early Christian kings in Scandinavia too, the decisive factor there that Bremen as a source of educated people and missionaries was much closer than even Russia let alone Constantinople).
 
FWIW at the time of conversion, the early Russian princes weren't even aware of the Schism between Orthodox and Catholic. The presence of some saints and feasts in the yearly calendar attests that.

Of course, they weren't: population of Kiev was baptized in 989 and the Great Schism happened only in 1054, the same year as his son, Yaroslav the Wise died. So there was no problem with the international marriages in the family. Yaroslav's daughters were: Elisiv of Norway (wife of Harald Hardrada), Anastasia, Queen of Hungary, Anne, Queen of the Franks and his sister was married to Casimir the Restorer.

OTOH, by 1054 the Byzantine Church was well-entrenched in Russia and, anyway, Russian Church was subordinated to the Patriarchate of Constantinople so going the Catholic way would mean administrative changes, obtaining the new service books, change of the clergy, etc. At that time advantages of getting into all that trouble were not quite obvious.
 
An unorthodox (ba dum tsss) idea -- Zoroastrian Iran manages to weather the storm of Islamic expansion, while Byzantium is still weakened by its struggles with the Caliphate. As a result, Zoroastrian thought spreads northward into the lands of the Rus, who adopt it after precedents of conflict with the Byzantine Empire and the Turks, forming a syncretic doctrine including both Slavic pagan beliefs and Zoroastrian principles and worldview.
Ununorthodox: Taoism. Have the Dao De Jing translated into Persian dialects and diffuse along the Silk Road until it is adopted by the Sarmatians, who spread it to the Khazars and the Slavs.
 
It would have to be Catholicism as close contact with Christianity means they would seek a Christian state to give themselves legitimacy within Christian Europe. The Slavs would only choose Islam if they like the Turks had extensive cross border trade and contact with Islam so it would mean the Caliphate reaching into the Balkans by the 700s
 
Ununorthodox: Taoism. Have the Dao De Jing translated into Persian dialects and diffuse along the Silk Road until it is adopted by the Sarmatians, who spread it to the Khazars and the Slavs.
But "un-unorthodox" implies that your idea of a Taoist Russia is orthodox, which it is not. :winkytongue:
 
I recall reading that the Czar who converted Russia to Christianity cynically shopped religions. He settled first on something Abrahamic, then rejected Judaism and Islam for its dietary restrictions (including, as noted, alcohol). I'm not finding much information now, other than the Czar in question was Vladimir I. Islam in any case seems highly unlikely.
 
I recall reading that the Czar who converted Russia to Christianity cynically shopped religions. He settled first on something Abrahamic, then rejected Judaism and Islam for its dietary restrictions (including, as noted, alcohol). I'm not finding much information now, other than the Czar in question was Vladimir I. Islam in any case seems highly unlikely.

The 1st Russian Tsar was Ivan IV. Vladimir was Grand Prince of Kiev. The story you mentioned is most probably a legend.
 
The 1st Russian Tsar was Ivan IV. Vladimir was Grand Prince of Kiev. The story you mentioned is most probably a legend.
I certainly stand corrected on their royal titles, but reviewing this thread it looks like David first posted something along the same lines:

It's frequently said that Islam was not a satisfactory option because of its prohibition of alcohol. I think this view requires some modification. The popular drink in Kievan Rus' was mead, with a fairly mild alcoholic content. (Wine was for the aristocrats only.) I suppose it might have been possible for Islamic authorities to tolerate mead--as they did kumiss, the fermented mare's milk which was the favorite drink of Turkic nomads. "Though the Koran prohibits wine — and the Kazak are faithful Muslims — the nomads at Timurlik said the Koran spoke only of wine, and so it was all right to enjoy kumiss." http://books.google.com/books?id=dXf1UJg-x20C&pg=PA148

In any event, entertaining as the "joy of the Rus" account in the Primary Chronicles may be, http://novaonline.nvcc.edu/eli/evans/his101/documents/chronicle.html [1] the real reason Vladimir decided on Orthodox Christianity was political. In 987 Vladimir put down a rebellion against the co-emperors of Byzantium, and demanded the hand of their sister Anna in return. They replied that they would agree only if Vladimir converted to Christianity. (Even after he converted, though, they tried to put the marriage off. Only the Rus' seizure of the Byzantine-held Crimean city of Cherson finally put an end to the Byzantines' stalling.) IMO, given the influence of Byzantium and given the fact that Orthodox Christianity had existed among the Rus' even before Vladimir's conversion, Orthodoxy was always most likely to be the religion the Rus' would choose after abandoning paganism.

[1] "Vladimir was visited by Bulgars of Muslim faith, who said, "Though you are a wise and prudent prince, you have no religion. Adopt our faith and revere Mahomet." Vladimir inquired about the nature of their religion. They replied that they believed in God, and that Mahomet instructed them to practice circumcision, to eat no pork, to drink no wine and, after death, promised them complete fulfillment of their carnal desires. "Mahomet," they claimed, "will give each man seventy fair women. He may choose one fair one, and upon that woman Mahomet will confer the charms of them all, and she shall be his wife. Mahomet then promises that one may then satisfy every desire, but whoever is poor in this world will be no different in the next." They also spoke other false things which out of modesty may not be written down. Vladimir listened to them, for he was fond of women and indulgence, regarding what he heard with pleasure, but circumcision and abstinence from pork and wine were disagreeable to him. "Drinking," he said, " is the joy of the Rus. We cannot exist without that pleasure."" I would really like to learn what those "other false things which out of modesty may not be written down" were...

See also this source.
 
I'm not that knowledgeable on Russian history, especially this period, but what if the Northern parts convert to the Roman rites, while the South, around Kiev goes with Byzantium and Orthodoxy This shouldn't matter that much, since this is pre-schism. And when the Mongols arrive and destroy the Kievan state, the Northern states, such as Vladimir, Novgorod, etc could continue to be Catholic (perhaps Greek Catholic?). So when they finally push the Tatars back as in OTL, the mostly depopulated Pontic Steppe can be converted to Catholicism.
 
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