What if different emblems were used?

I am wondering what if someone like Hitler or Stalin used different symbols for their movements.

For instance, Hitler used a 5 pointed star to contrast the 6 pointed star. Or a 1 headed eagle was used in place of the two headed eagle.

I know that the USA changed their pledge from what the nazi salute adopted to the hand over the heart.

But what if one of America's (or Britain's) enemies used their symbology?
 

Sachyriel

Banned
I like to think that if the Nazis in Germany stuck with the more traditional fasces (?) or a variation of it then the swastika would still be a good thing, something you could display proudly, without being called a racist.
 
Wait, because the Nazis stopped us from using a symbol of prosperity, the world economy isn't as good as it could have been! Oh, wait, this isn'y alien space bats, is it?

/if they used a 5-pointed star, we might get more false Nazi accusations simply because of how common it is.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Wait, because the Nazis stopped us from using a symbol of prosperity, the world economy isn't as good as it could have been! Oh, wait, this isn'y alien space bats, is it?

/if they used a 5-pointed star, we might get more false Nazi accusations simply because of how common it is.

While your simplification of global economics intrigues me I must disagree with your condescending tone. :rolleyes: Symbols are fairly important.
 
Whether the Nazi association takes over the meaning of the symbol depends on the relative strength of the Nazi association and the prior associations. The swastika was a fairly obscure symbol in western countries pre-Nazi, and while the Bellamy salute was better-known, it was only used in America to salute the flag, and even there it had only been in widespread use for a generation or two. By the time the Bellamy salute was replaced with the hand-over-heart salute in the US due to the similarity with the Roman salute used by Nazis and Italian fascists, it was more strongly associated in the public mind with Nazis than with the Pledge of Allegiance, to the point that photos of notable isolationists performing the Bellamy salute were circulated to discredit them as Nazi sympathizers.

A number of less widely-recognized symbols used by Nazis or Italian Fascists are still nevertheless used in the US. The Fasce itself, for instance, appears carved into doorways in the White House, behind the Speaker's Dais in the House of Representatives, in the US Senate seal, etc. I suspect the 5-pointed star and the Eagle would still be seen by Americans as American symbols even if they'd also been used by the Nazis, simply because they've been used so widely and for so long that the old associations would be too strong to displace.
 
A number of less widely-recognized symbols used by Nazis or Italian Fascists are still nevertheless used in the US. The Fasce itself, for instance, appears carved into doorways in the White House, behind the Speaker's Dais in the House of Representatives, in the US Senate seal, etc. I suspect the 5-pointed star and the Eagle would still be seen by Americans as American symbols even if they'd also been used by the Nazis, simply because they've been used so widely and for so long that the old associations would be too strong to displace.

It may be that if the Nazis choose a symbol more familiar to the U.S., the 'bad emblem' would be one that includes more of the context of the symbol. There'd be no problem with 'five pointed stars', but there would be with 'black five pointed star in a white circle in a red field'. For an OTL example, most U.S.ians have no problem with diagonal blue crosses, even if they're put in a red field, but when you line them up with stars, then you're going to offend somebody.
 
It may be that if the Nazis choose a symbol more familiar to the U.S., the 'bad emblem' would be one that includes more of the context of the symbol. There'd be no problem with 'five pointed stars', but there would be with 'black five pointed star in a white circle in a red field'. For an OTL example, most U.S.ians have no problem with diagonal blue crosses, even if they're put in a red field, but when you line them up with stars, then you're going to offend somebody.

It's been said before, but it bears repeating: The five-pointed star is such a basic and common American symbol the Nazis could not have usurped and ruined it no matter how much they used it, whatever color they used. After all, 50 years of war and semi-war with Communists who used red and yellow stars did not ruin stars, even red ones, for the US. 12 years of a Nazi Germany with a black star in a white circle on a red field would not make Americans shy of waving flags with stars, even black ones. The Swastika was an unfamiliar symbol, used primarily by Native Americans. It did appear on the emblems of the US Lafayette Escadrille in France and in the US 45th Infantry Division prior to 1936, but it was never an "American" symbol, the same way the star or bald eagle is.
 
The Australian Flag used to be the Australian Red Ensign.

The reason for the change is closely related to Ming's anti-communism.
 

Cook

Banned
The Australian Flag used to be the Australian Red Ensign.

The reason for the change is closely related to Ming's anti-communism.

You are mistaken. The Australian Red Ensign was and still is used exclusively by the Australian Merchant Marine.
 
The Red ensign was used interchangeably with the present Blue ensign, until the mid 1930's (?) - cannot remember exact dates. As Cook mentions above it remains in use with Australian flagged shipping.
 

Cook

Banned
You are wrong, please see the well cited article in Wikipedia. The Red Ensign was consigned to civil naval use in the 1950s. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_flag#Blue_or_Red_Ensign.3F ]

Here’s a tip; don’t use Wikimakeitupasyougoalongapedia.

The Australian Red Ensign was the winning selection for the Merchant Marine in the 1901 Flag Competition. Confusion arose in the early part of the century regarding when and when it was meant to be used but it was never the National Flag. In 1953 the Commonwealth government codified its use in an act of Parliament.

For the correct use of Australian flags refer to: http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/symbols/otherflag.cfm
 
Here’s a tip; don’t use Wikimakeitupasyougoalongapedia.

The Australian Red Ensign was the winning selection for the Merchant Marine in the 1901 Flag Competition. Confusion arose in the early part of the century regarding when and when it was meant to be used but it was never the National Flag. In 1953 the Commonwealth government codified its use in an act of Parliament.

For the correct use of Australian flags refer to: http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/symbols/otherflag.cfm

Allow me to quote your source back to you, which agrees in substantial points with the wikipedia article, and my own assertion that Ming clarified the flags issue due to communism:
Historically, the Australian red ensign was used on land and at sea and Australians have fought under it during both world wars.

There was considerable confusion in the first half of the 20th century over the appropriate use of the red ensign as opposed to the blue ensign.

This was clarified with the passage of the Flags Act 1953 which proclaimed the blue ensign as the Australian National Flag.

If you wish to quibble regarding the official circumstances of Acts, then please do so; but, Ming was directly offended by the Communist Party, Labor, and worker's general use of the Red Ensign as signifying a fundamental link between Australian Nationality and workers movements.

You may also be interested in the description of Nationality as separate from, but closely aligned with, the modern state. This kind of discussion can be found in most texts dealing with history of Nationalities. In particular, and quite obviously, the emergence of the French nation in 1789 is an excellent example of the tenuous relationship between the State and the Nation.

Ming clearly felt that his government's capacity to monopolise the National Narrative was at threat due to the flags issue.
 

Cook

Banned
Oh for Christ Sake; read the article.

The Australian National Flag was selected in 1901.

At the same time the Australian Red Ensign was selected for use by the Australian Merchant Marine. It was only ever intended for use at sea, the National Ensign for all other purposes, but members of the general public began misusing the Red Ensign. To stop the confusion Parliament passed the Flags Act in 1953 clarifying what was and was not an official flag and when they could be used. Clearly they weren’t completely successful in ending the confusion.
 
The Australian National Flag was selected in 1901.

And yet 52 years of popular and military confusion continued where the actual nation—those people comprising it—made statements by using the civil flag, made official use of this flag in times of war, and make public commemorations of nationality (such as war remembrance, or public assertions of a minority political movement's claimed centrality to the nation) through using the red ensign.

"Official" hardly counts when public practice refuses the law. Regardless of the State's definition of the national flag; this was actually and historically contested and confused.

To assume that Ming's motivation was solely due to public confusion is doing a discredit to Ming's virulent anti-socialism and a discredit to Ming's masterful capacity to control the public reception of his actions.
 

Cook

Banned
No-one was refusing the law; they were just misusing the flag because it hadn’t been spelled out when to correctly use it. It’s hardly suprising; these days more than half the country is unable to pick the correct way to hang the Aboriginal Flag and that’s been around since the ‘70s and an official flag since ’95.

The Red Ensign was at no time the National Flag.

But stick with your Menzies conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better. We don’t go in for Conspiracy theories round here by the way.
 
No-one was refusing the law; they were just misusing the flag because it hadn’t been spelled out when to correctly use it.

Apart from, amongst other examples, the CP quite deliberately marching behind it.

But stick with your Menzies conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better.

No thanks, I'd rather stick with the oral histories and memoirs of former CP individuals during the 1940s and 1950s when the CP was explicitly attempting to hegemonise progressive nationalism in Australia—claiming that anti-communist motives motivated Menzies in 1953 is nowhere near a conspiracy theory. The offensiveness of the misuse of the flag certainly did not cause trouble in 1943, or 1933, or 1923. With the exception of an inverted flying of the blue ensign I noted in Hansard.

If we look into details
Hansard House 20 November 1953, Flags Bill second reading, Menzies
The bill will set out legislatively something that represents common practice and a common view in our country. It declares the Australian Blue Ensign to be the Australian National Flag. It redesignates the Australian Red Ensign to be the Australian marine flag. … I have been informed that whenever something is added to the flag, it is defaced. Therefore, there are references in the bill to defacing the flag or permitting defacing of the flag by making some change or addition.

Calwell, on the resumed second reading of 2 December 1953 has some interesting points to note in relation to the debate we have above, one which contradicts your reading of the Flag Act 1953 which is sourced to Ausflags
…Our flag was first selected in 1903 or 1904. Up to the present the Red Ensign has had significance equal to that of the Blue Ensign-

Mr Beale - That is quite wrong.

Mr CALWELL - It is not, as I shall quickly prove. The Army and the Navy, and later, the Air Force. adopted the Blue Ensign, but no act of parliament prescribed that the Blue Ensign was the official or national flag of Australia. It is well that at this time, 53 years after federation, we should decide to recognize the Blue Ensign as the national flag.

Drummond, of the Country Party for New England reiterates the novelty of declaring a National flag in the second reading. (Calwell and Drummond both of course had the parliamentary privilege to lie; but both came from opposite sides of the house, and would have been roundly criticised in the house for such a lie).

In the Senate, McLeay notes in the second reading the widespread use and public sentiment for the red ensign.

However, earlier Drummond may have mislead parliament inadvertently, as he asked a probing question of Ming in 1950 regarding the "official flag of the Commonwealth" being the blue ensign, and the red ensign being the merchant flag. This would however mean that Ming also mislead parliament on this occasion—but only if we are to take the official flag of the commonwealth being identical with the "national flag".

Calwell, in question time in 1949 in relation to immigration, refers directly to the red ensign as the Australian Flag.

The confusions of members of the house didn't greatly affect anyone, until 1950, when Ming gets a dorothy dixer about the blue ensign. Prior to this, the major debates about the flag I noted were attacks on Calwell for dishonouring the union jack.
 

Cook

Banned
No thanks, I'd rather stick with the oral histories and memoirs of former CP individuals during the 1940s and 1950s when the CP was explicitly attempting to hegemonise progressive nationalism in Australia...

Yes, it’s not like former members of the Communist Party of Australia to be fans of Conspiracy theories ever.

When you have cabinet papers that cover this vast plot by Menzies to do way wit a red flag get back to us, otherwise stop peddling conspiracy theories because we don’t go in for them here.
 
Top