RNG

Banned
What if D Day never happened? What if the Allies decided to push thought Italy into Germany instead. How would this change the war? Who would get to Berlin first, the Soviets or the Americans? Depending on who got their first how would it change Germany post war, would it still be divided up, or would it all be under American occupation, or Soviet occupation? What would happen to France if they were not liberated in the same why, would they be more likely to go communist? Would the war go on longer resulting in nuclear weapons being used in Europe? If so what would happen to Japan, would they surrender upon hearing of this weapon being used, or would go the same with the same fate? If the war in Europe was quicker would Operation Downfall take place? How would the world be different? what you think?
 

Philip

Donor
Logistics and terrain make this difficult for the Western Allies. It probably angers Papa Joe as well as he thinks the Western Allies are not placing enough pressure on Germany. Soviet Union reaches the Rhine (occupying a rabidly collapsing Germany). Cold War might be interesting if the WAllies manage to occupy Slovenia, Austria, and Bavaria.
 
What if D Day never happened? What if the Allies decided to push thought Italy into Germany instead.

This question of Italy and southern Europe has come up many times. I don't think anything has changed in the answer.

The ports and transportation infrastructure of Italy and southern Europe were not capable of supporting the large army groups the Allies deployed in France. they'd been limited to maybe twenty divisions in 1943, and hard pressed to support 40 in 1944. The numbers for port capacity don't add up, and the capability of the railways and automotive roads are worse.

Second problem are the multiple mountain ranges. In the winter of 1943/44 the relatively small Appinnes greatly aided the Germans in holding the Allied armies on the Liri river for over six months. The same occurred a bit further north where a larger mountain range stalled the Allied armies another six months. After that you have the Austrian Alps, then the rugged and forested regions of southern Germany. Or. if you swing right through the chimera of the 'Lubjana Gap' you are struggling across small plains and valleys compartmented by more mountain ranges, forests, large rivers including the Danube. In that direction you don't hit countryside suitable for mobile warfare until you reach Poland & Saxony ect...

Contrast that with the western European coast of France & Begium. Several large modern ports, a dozen smaller modern commercial ports, & at the north end the super port of Antwerp. Connecting those with Germany is a broad plain hindered only at the eastern end by some forested uplands, and the tiny Vosges mountain range. The entire region is covered by a dense network of high capacity of automotive and rail roads. Unlike Italy & the Balkans the region is inhabited by a pro Allied population, with lots of skilled tradesmen and laborers to help rebuild and damaged infrastructure.
 

Don Quijote

Banned
There would have to be landings in France at some stage, although with a Mediterranean-based strategy the primary landing would be Dragoon in the south, and Overlord as the diversion. I think the Allies can definitely speed things up in Italy if they don't have the best troops and commanders taken away for NW Europe - more troops at Anzio and more reserves for the breakthrough from the Gustav Line could have wiped out a lot of the German strength in Italy.
 
If D-day fails, American and British forces can not pour into France and give Hitler a major front in the West. That leaves Germany with more resources to hold off the Soviets in the East. The Red Army, as we know, was powerful enough to take down the Third Reich without allied help, though it might take a few months longer. The US could have more forces to fight Japan and the Pacific war would end months sooner. Best case: Germany holds out until August, 1945 when The Bomb is deployed to Germany, bringing a surrender and forcing the Soviets to honor an Allied victory very similar to OTL. Worst case: Soviets take full control of Germany and eventually France and the Low Countries, setting up the political alignments of Eurasia and Oceania as described by Orwell. The problem: the Soviets would get all of Germany's rocket technology.
 
This question of Italy and southern Europe has come up many times. I don't think anything has changed in the answer.

The ports and transportation infrastructure of Italy and southern Europe were not capable of supporting the large army groups the Allies deployed in France. they'd been limited to maybe twenty divisions in 1943, and hard pressed to support 40 in 1944. The numbers for port capacity don't add up, and the capability of the railways and automotive roads are worse.

Second problem are the multiple mountain ranges. In the winter of 1943/44 the relatively small Appinnes greatly aided the Germans in holding the Allied armies on the Liri river for over six months. The same occurred a bit further north where a larger mountain range stalled the Allied armies another six months. After that you have the Austrian Alps, then the rugged and forested regions of southern Germany. Or. if you swing right through the chimera of the 'Lubjana Gap' you are struggling across small plains and valleys compartmented by more mountain ranges, forests, large rivers including the Danube. In that direction you don't hit countryside suitable for mobile warfare until you reach Poland & Saxony ect...

Contrast that with the western European coast of France & Begium. Several large modern ports, a dozen smaller modern commercial ports, & at the north end the super port of Antwerp. Connecting those with Germany is a broad plain hindered only at the eastern end by some forested uplands, and the tiny Vosges mountain range. The entire region is covered by a dense network of high capacity of automotive and rail roads. Unlike Italy & the Balkans the region is inhabited by a pro Allied population, with lots of skilled tradesmen and laborers to help rebuild and damaged infrastructure.
Assuming deception operations keep the OTL German forces in France in France, is it possible without troops being stripped from the Italian theatre in '44 to make considerably greater gains and advances in Italy in mid 1944? Especially if this timeline's version of Operation Diadem manages to trap and take out the German 10th army?
 

RNG

Banned
D Day is a failure. Erwin Rommel does not leave for Normandy and the Allied mission to distract the Germans that they were planing to invade Calais. Although they have air dominance, they fail on the ground. D Day is labelled as the Second Dunkirk. The plan to take Germany from France has failed. Now the Allies decide they should invade from Italy. A massive operation takes place to send forces to Southern Italy. With no fight in France Germany manages to keep Russia back for a while longer yet they are still too weak against them and are still pushed back. The Allies push up Italy means the Soviets manage to take all of Germany, except Bavaria, the Low Countries, Denmark, and France. Italy, Austria, and Bavaria are made into American puppet states. The Soviets invade the Japanese empire and take Manchuria, Korea, and Japan. Nuclear weapons are created after war. European colonies are proxy wars, although they lose in Asia with India, Indonesia, Vietnam etc.. turning communist, they manage to take African colonies as puppet states. They support the British empire and Britain manages to keep it's African colonies. America also invades and takes Caribbean islands and creating the puppet country of The Federation of the Caribbean, Britain slowly allows it's colonies like Jamaica to join. When Franco dies and the monarchy and democracy is restored. Communists supported by the USSR rise up and America supports the government. The Second Spanish Civil War starts. However the USSR is rife with riots. They are not able to support the communists in the war and they lose. The riots in the USSR build and the USSR uses more harsh methods however this just adds fuel to the riots. In many nations revelations start. The USSR soon collapses as a result. Bavaria and Germany do not unite as America tried to endorse Bavarian culture and to try and stop them wanted to join Germany. With no Afghanistan invasion 9/11 never happens. There is still some middle east intervention, however not so much. Islamic terrorism is not as much as a problem for the West.
 
Assuming deception operations keep the OTL German forces in France in France, is it possible without troops being stripped from the Italian theatre in '44 to make considerably greater gains and advances in Italy in mid 1944? Especially if this timeline's version of Operation Diadem manages to trap and take out the German 10th army?

Even with the deception ops Kesselring was allowed large reserves. One of the reasons he was able to stuff the SHINGLE operation.

Trapping the 10th Army is a chimerra. Not understood by Truscott, and many others since is there were a couple other routes than the Rte. Six so often mentioned. WGF Jackson clearly illustrates this in his history of the Italian Campaign.

Central Italy was better served with paved roads than is usually understood. Most of Kesselrings Army Group went nowhere near Rome in their retreat.
 
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