What If: Continuing Tudor Dynasty

[Cate13]

What would it take to have Edward VI married with an heir before his death? Besides drastically extending his life (a year or two is fine, but if he lives to his twenties it's not that hard to give him an heir).

My first thought is a marriage to Lady Jane Grey, with one child (maybe another on the way) when he dies. Would Mary acknowledge her brother's child as heir? What would the Tudor Court be like with a long regency and two former/current/bastard/legitimate older princesses? Would Mary and Elizabeth be married off? Or with the child being young, would they be kept close. Who else could be Edward's widow?

 

[Shiva]

If we are talking Edward VI, his long unstable regency, combined with the poor harvests, starvation, and the unpopular religious changes, have laid the foundation for mass revolt no matter what.

But instead of the revolt turning into the overthrow of 'Queen' Jane by Mary, instead we'll be seeing Mary and other discontented nobles using it as a launch pad for a coup to overthrow the Dudleys and put Mary in charge as Regent (and heir?) instead.

Then Mary will take command of her nephew's education to ensure that he grows up a 'proper' Catholic ruler. If Jane Grey has a second child of Edward VI's, Mary will have the baby taken away at birth and stuff the 'Heretic Queen' into imprisonment, maybe even arrange for her to 'die in childbirth'.

As for the names of Edward VI's children, he is something of a Protestant prig so he might name his firstborn son after a Protestant reformer that he likes/admires. Though this might lead him to naming his firstborn son 'Henry' after his glorious father who broke with the 'Papist' Roman Church. If he has a daughter then the name 'Jane' would be obvious after both his own mother and his wife.

Let's say for the sake of stability that he had a boy first and Jane was pregnant with a daughter as her husband was dying.

Edward VI would be replaced with a toddler King Henry IX and he'd be under the care of his brand new Regent, reminted Princess Mary (who will upon seizing power have her mother restored as Henry VIII's legitimate wife by Act of Parliament), and then once Princess Jane is born Mary the Regent will feel secure enough to 'Restore the True Faith' to England.

 

[Kerney]

If we are talking Edward VI, his long unstable regency, combined with the poor harvests, starvation, and the unpopular religious changes, have laid the foundation for mass revolt no matter what.

But instead of the revolt turning into the overthrow of 'Queen' Jane by Mary, instead we'll be seeing Mary and other discontented nobles using it as a launch pad for a coup to overthrow the Dudleys and put Mary in charge as Regent (and heir?) instead.

Then Mary will take command of her nephew's education to ensure that he grows up a 'proper' Catholic ruler. If Jane Grey has a second child of Edward VI's, Mary will have the baby taken away at birth and stuff the 'Heretic Queen' into imprisonment, maybe even arrange for her to 'die in childbirth'.

As for the names of Edward VI's children, he is something of a Protestant prig so he might name his firstborn son after a Protestant reformer that he likes/admires. Though this might lead him to naming his firstborn son 'Henry' after his glorious father who broke with the 'Papist' Roman Church. If he has a daughter then the name 'Jane' would be obvious after both his own mother and his wife.

Let's say for the sake of stability that he had a boy first and Jane was pregnant with a daughter as her husband was dying.

Edward VI would be replaced with a toddler King Henry IX and he'd be under the care of his brand new Regent, reminted Princess Mary (who will upon seizing power have her mother restored as Henry VIII's legitimate wife by Act of Parliament), and then once Princess Jane is born Mary the Regent will feel secure enough to 'Restore the True Faith' to England.

One minor detail. Edward, or his regents might not let Mary keep her head.

 

[Shiva]

One minor detail. Edward, or his regents might not let Mary keep her head.

Killing your own sister is a BIG DEAL, even in this era. And again Edward's regents have screwed things up so badly that by the time he died, their house of cards was destined to fall. The real question is... Who gets to pick up the pieces.

 

[Cate13]

Snip

I think it would be a lot harder for Mary to end up on top then in OTL.

With Edward having a son she can’t claim the throne and no one really wants a female regent. I could see her leading a faction to limit Dudley’s authority, but I don’t see her becoming regent or being able to restore Catholicism. Nor do I see Queen Dowager Jane being shuffled off to the side.

Jane really was a formidable person, OTL she didn’t have the time to grow into herself, but with some time I think she’d be able to match Mary.

Also, it doesn’t have to be Jane Grey as Edward’s widow. A foreign princess would bring in a whole new dynamic. Especially a Protestant one.

 

[isabella]

If we are talking Edward VI, his long unstable regency, combined with the poor harvests, starvation, and the unpopular religious changes, have laid the foundation for mass revolt no matter what.

But instead of the revolt turning into the overthrow of 'Queen' Jane by Mary, instead we'll be seeing Mary and other discontented nobles using it as a launch pad for a coup to overthrow the Dudleys and put Mary in charge as Regent (and heir?) instead.

Then Mary will take command of her nephew's education to ensure that he grows up a 'proper' Catholic ruler. If Jane Grey has a second child of Edward VI's, Mary will have the baby taken away at birth and stuff the 'Heretic Queen' into imprisonment, maybe even arrange for her to 'die in childbirth'.

As for the names of Edward VI's children, he is something of a Protestant prig so he might name his firstborn son after a Protestant reformer that he likes/admires. Though this might lead him to naming his firstborn son 'Henry' after his glorious father who broke with the 'Papist' Roman Church. If he has a daughter then the name 'Jane' would be obvious after both his own mother and his wife.

Let's say for the sake of stability that he had a boy first and Jane was pregnant with a daughter as her husband was dying.

Edward VI would be replaced with a toddler King Henry IX and he'd be under the care of his brand new Regent, reminted Princess Mary (who will upon seizing power have her mother restored as Henry VIII's legitimate wife by Act of Parliament), and then once Princess Jane is born Mary the Regent will feel secure enough to 'Restore the True Faith' to England.

NO WAY Mary would be allowed to have so much power with Edward’s children... And if Mary try something like her OTL stunt with a legitimate male in male line who has much more right to the Crown than she ever had, and doing that for claiming the Crown or only the regency do not matter at all, she will find himself with little support and thrown in the Tower... Thinking well is pretty likely who she will be sent there as soon Edward’s children is born...
If England will have a female Regent in this scenario that will be Dowager Queen Jane not lady Mary...
And Edward’s regency will tell you exactly why such stunt from Mary will not work

I think it would be a lot harder for Mary to end up on top then in OTL.

With Edward having a son she can’t claim the throne and no one really wants a female regent. I could see her leading a faction to limit Dudley’s authority, but I don’t see her becoming regent or being able to restore Catholicism. Nor do I see Queen Dowager Jane being shuffled off to the side.

Jane really was a formidable person, OTL she didn’t have the time to grow into herself, but with some time I think she’d be able to match Mary.

Also, it doesn’t have to be Jane Grey as Edward’s widow. A foreign princess would bring in a whole new dynamic. Especially a Protestant one.

Edward will not marry a Protestant princess as he had two other main candidates in mind (and was already engaged to his plan b): aka Marie Stuart, Queen of Scotland (sadly in France and engaged to the Dauphin of France) and Elisabeth of France (Edward’s official fiancée)

 

[Cate13]

Marie Stuart

What about a POD where Francis dies earlier so Edward can marry Mary Stuart? When would Francis have to die and what would England be like with Mary Stewart running around? Would Mary be forced to abdicate in favor of her son if her son was King of England?

 

[isabella]

What about a POD where Francis dies earlier so Edward can marry Mary Stuart? When would Francis have to die and what would England be like with Mary Stewart running around? Would Mary be forced to abdicate in favor of her son if her son was King of England?

No, Mary would most likely keep her crown and kingdom because if her heir is already King of another Kingdom the Scottish nobles would be in no hurry to lose their independence replacing Mary with her son

 

[desmirelle]

To answer Cate13's first question: In order to keep the fanatically protestant Edward VI from dying so young, one will have to have NOT get the measles, which weakened his immune system to the point that he got the Tudor Tuberculous. (Which probably killed his paternal grandfather and paternal aunt Mary.) Now, in order to get TB, you've already have the inactive virus in your system, which means may he get it later on without the measles.

I don't think he'd marry an English girl. He's the King of England. In the 16th century, Kings married foreign princesses (at least the first marriage). Find this lad a Foreign Princess to wed, so that Seymour and Dudley don't get Jane killed. Think: who would Henry VIII have chosen for his son's bride? Not a non-royal cousin. Her grandfather was Charles Brandon, a favorite but hardly royal. He only got Dowager French Queen Mary because she sorta blackmailed him into doing something he didn't mind doing. Isn't Elizabeth of France a foreign princess?

With a foreign princess, we're less likely to have H8's daughter Mary on the regency board, despite her popularity (she was the daughter of "Good Queen Katherine", after all, and considered legitimate no matter what her father said (until English Queen Mary began burning people, they agreed with Elizabeth the bastard). In fact, it would probably be in the marriage contract - keeping his sisters bastards and marrying them to English subjects, it would be the smart thing to do.

 

[isabella]

To answer Cate13's first question: In order to keep the fanatically protestant Edward VI from dying so young, one will have to have NOT get the measles, which weakened his immune system to the point that he got the Tudor Tuberculous. (Which probably killed his paternal grandfather and paternal aunt Mary.) Now, in order to get TB, you've already have the inactive virus in your system, which means may he get it later on without the measles.

I don't think he'd marry an English girl. He's the King of England. In the 16th century, Kings married foreign princesses (at least the first marriage). Find this lad a Foreign Princess to wed, so that Seymour and Dudley don't get Jane killed. Think: who would Henry VIII have chosen for his son's bride? Not a non-royal cousin. Her grandfather was Charles Brandon, a favorite but hardly royal. He only got Dowager French Queen Mary because she sorta blackmailed him into doing something he didn't mind doing. Isn't Elizabeth of France a foreign princess?

With a foreign princess, we're less likely to have H8's daughter Mary on the regency board, despite her popularity (she was the daughter of "Good Queen Katherine", after all, and considered legitimate no matter what her father said (until English Queen Mary began burning people, they agreed with Elizabeth the bastard). In fact, it would probably be in the marriage contract - keeping his sisters bastards and marrying them to English subjects, it would be the smart thing to do.

Mary will stay unmarried (she is already an old maid) and Elizabeth will be married to some English noble

 

[Grey Wolf]

I don't see how you can say that he won't marry an English girl since

Edward IV - married an English girl
Richard III - married an English girl
Henry VII - married an English girl
Henry VIII - married 6 girls, 2 of which, including the one who survived him, were English

 

[isabella]

I don't see how you can say that he won't marry an English girl since

Edward IV - married an English girl
Richard III - married an English girl
Henry VII - married an English girl
Henry VIII - married 6 girls, 2 of which, including the one who survived him, were English

Four of the 6 wives of Henry were English: Anne Boleyn, her cousin Katherine Howard, Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr... more or less all this wedding were quite scandalous
Edward IV’s wedding was a scandal (and the search for a continental match for him was in course) Richard III married in a period in which nobody would think who he would ever become King and after becoming King and widowed he searched a foreign bride, Henry VII needed to marry the Yorkist heiress for consolidating his power (or his crown would be on serious risk)

 

[Grey Wolf]

Four of the 6 wives of Henry were English: Anne Boleyn, her cousin Katherine Howard, Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr... more or less all this wedding were quite scandalous
Edward IV’s wedding was a scandal (and the search for a continental match for him was in course) Richard III married in a period in which nobody would think who he would ever become King and after becoming King and widowed he searched a foreign bride, Henry VII needed to marry the Yorkist heiress for consolidating his power (or his crown would be on serious risk)

Actually reinforces my point lol. I was thinking only of Catherine Howard and Catherine Parr, but you are right

The idea that by the 16th century an English king marries a foreign royal is nonsense. The only RECENT example is Henry VIII's first marriage. Before that you have to go back to Henry VI some fifty or so years befoere. You can't even say it BECOMES a norm, as the ONLY other monarch of England to marry a foreign spouse in the 16th century is Mary. Thus of 16th century monarchs OTL

Henry VII - English bride
Henry VIII - Foreign, English, English, Foreign, English, English
Edward VI - n/a
Mary I - Foreign
Elizabeth I - did not marry

There is definitely no rule or even precedent saying that Edward VI living longer would marry a foreign princess

 

[Peppe]

There is definitely no rule or even precedent saying that Edward VI living longer would marry a foreign princess

He would still marry a foreign princess (maybe Swedish or Danish if he didn’t stay with his French bride) because at that time marriage was a matter of politics, and his father’s reign had really weakened England’s international standing

 

[isabella]

Actually reinforces my point lol. I was thinking only of Catherine Howard and Catherine Parr, but you are right

The idea that by the 16th century an English king marries a foreign royal is nonsense. The only RECENT example is Henry VIII's first marriage. Before that you have to go back to Henry VI some fifty or so years befoere. You can't even say it BECOMES a norm, as the ONLY other monarch of England to marry a foreign spouse in the 16th century is Mary. Thus of 16th century monarchs OTL

Henry VII - English bride
Henry VIII - Foreign, English, English, Foreign, English, English
Edward VI - n/a
Mary I - Foreign
Elizabeth I - did not marry

There is definitely no rule or even precedent saying that Edward VI living longer would marry a foreign princess

Well everything said Edward was pretty determined in getting Elisabeth of France as bride (and she was already a second choice as Marie Stuart would be a better match). I can not see Edward marrying differently as Henri II also was pretty determined in marrying Elisabeth to Edward.
At the worst Edward will look to a Protestant princess but likely NEVER to a local girl (it is also a question of prestige, one of the reasons for which Edward IV‘s wedding was scandalous and Henry VI was married to the French Marguerite d’Anjou)