What if Charles the Bold has a posthumous son with Margaret of York, what would be the consequences of this POD..obviously after the POD Mary would have lost the burden of being the heiress..
What if Charles the Bold has a posthumous son with Margaret of York
- Thread starter kasumigenx
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Well, I would suspect that there would end up being a War of Burgundian Succession as the young heir (or his supporters) would try to get the Burgundian lands to acknowledge him as the rightful ruler and to not see those lands divided between France and the Habsburgs. Although, I wonder if the division of Burgundy would even be attempted in this case (although I suppose it would be easy enough to claim that Margaret had been unfaithful and young *Jean is not really Charles' son).
I don't think this would lead to a reinvigoration of the 100 Years War - after Henry VI and the Wars of the Roses, England's chance are regaining French territory is pretty limited and, save for a few face saving efforts, Edward, Richard and the Henrys seem to have recognized this. However, I could definitely see England intervene in a War of Burgundian Succession in order to maintain a potential strong ally and a counter balance to French power.
I don't think this would lead to a reinvigoration of the 100 Years War - after Henry VI and the Wars of the Roses, England's chance are regaining French territory is pretty limited and, save for a few face saving efforts, Edward, Richard and the Henrys seem to have recognized this. However, I could definitely see England intervene in a War of Burgundian Succession in order to maintain a potential strong ally and a counter balance to French power.
Why would there be a civil war? There wasn't a civil war when Louis X died and left his widow pregnant nor was there one when Henry V did the same. Neither France nor the Habsburgs could do anything legally and to accuse a Princess of the Royal House of England of producing a bastard child is highly unrealistic at best. The most that the French could claim would be the Duchy itself, under the argument that Charles committed treason against his liege-lord and thus forfeited Burgundy. The rest would be entirely beyond the legalistic ways of claiming territories that existed in Europe.
Is legitimacy really that important is waging a war?A good number of wars during that period don't seem to be necessarily waged with any legal claims.Burgundy with Charles dead would be in complete chaos.Furthermore,the Burgundian army seemed to be critically weakened following the Burgundian wars.
Other than Burgundy,the French also have claims over the County of Flanders.
Just wonder once the French King knows that once Margaret of York is pregnant, the French King would abandon his plans to marry Mary of Burgundy to his son and Mary of Burgundy marries Maximilian and Elizabeth of York marries the Dauphin..a good POD..
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Don't hijack the thread.Charles getting more than one son has been discussed a good number of times.This however wasn't discussed.
Sorry. Okay, so a heir for Burgundy is always good to have. Wich marriages are available for the little future duke here? A english perhaps?
If there is any sort of war to keep the posthumous son's inheritance intact, what are the odds that Edward IV gets England involved on behalf of his nephew?
And if so, odds are good that the OTL death of Edward IV gets butterflied, but it could be sooner or it could be later than OTL.
Also, the OTL life's of Edward's siblings will get butterflied in interesting ways ... I'm looking at you, Richard! (I can see him on a regency council in Burgundy)
And if so, odds are good that the OTL death of Edward IV gets butterflied, but it could be sooner or it could be later than OTL.
Also, the OTL life's of Edward's siblings will get butterflied in interesting ways ... I'm looking at you, Richard! (I can see him on a regency council in Burgundy)
A son for Charles of Burgundy in 1468 means that the marriage between Isabella and Ferdinand is most likely called off so no Spain, Louis the Spider will probably support a marriage between Mary of Burgundy and Ferdinand..
A Posthumous son for Charles of Burgundy is implausible, the most plausible latest time will be early 1476, because Charles and Margaret of York last met on July 1475..
A Posthumous son for Charles of Burgundy is implausible, the most plausible latest time will be early 1476, because Charles and Margaret of York last met on July 1475..
I find it hard to believe that Ferdinand would let a heirress like Isabella slip though his fingers.
If the little duke is born in 1476, then Anne of Brittany is a candidate for his hand. That would be interesting to se unfold.
If the little duke is born in 1476, then Anne of Brittany is a candidate for his hand. That would be interesting to se unfold.
He is the son of Margaret of York, most likely he is next to succession..
He'd definitely be behind Edward of Middleham (if he lives longer ITTL), Edward of Warwick, and the de la Pole boys- I don't think a 6-8 year old foreigner who is already caught up in Burgundy would figure too prominently in English succession plans.
Though as mentioned upthread butterflies could change the circumstances of Edward IV's death and radically Richard's career trajectory- if Edward had held on for a few more years and left behind an adult heir then Richard's room for manoeuvre is restricted.
He'd be after his adult (Lincoln at least), English, de la Pole cousins surely? Even if you go by strict primogeniture, Elizabeth of York Duchess of Suffolk was older than Margaret of York Duchess of Burgundy.
TTL Jean/Jan/John of Burgundy would personally be able to give much more military support to the Yorkist cause, than his Suffolk cousins. They probably will enjoy a stronger local support, but John/Jan/Jean will like OTL King-Stadtholder William III only bring his full military support, if he will be the one, who sits on the throne. Otherwise sure he might give some help, but no where near as much as he would do for his personal ambitions.
Wed him to Anne of Brittany please. Shouldn't his name be Philip rather than Jean btw?
I do see a rather fascinating scenario, where with the right manoeuvring, both France and Austria agree to "Ensure the succession of the Unborn Duke" - leading to them deploying here, there and everywhere. Obviously both sides trying to undermine the other, and thinking that the child is unlikely to be born and survive.
However, the child lives, and counter-intuitive it might seem, having large forces PEACEFULLY deployed in their territories would be a huge economic boon - both armies are paying Burgundian subjects for food and grain (since they don't have the authority to requisition it), repair equipment, etc. All those people who typically look after troops, are used to working for two armies. - This would likely provide the logistical support for a larger Post-Birth army for Burgundy.
Plus, both Austria and France may well try and influence the newborn - so French and Austrian intellectuals as advisors are present - invite in some Italians and former Romans, and you've got a regular intellectual hotbed, which could turn Burgundy into a second Renaissance hotbed. (Which arguably, the Netherlands was to an extent).
Whilst an unusual inheritance indeed - unless the infant is an absolute idiot, they could become one of the more important monarchs in European history. It'd be an exciting timeline I think - a united Netherlands, under a Renaissance King.
However, the child lives, and counter-intuitive it might seem, having large forces PEACEFULLY deployed in their territories would be a huge economic boon - both armies are paying Burgundian subjects for food and grain (since they don't have the authority to requisition it), repair equipment, etc. All those people who typically look after troops, are used to working for two armies. - This would likely provide the logistical support for a larger Post-Birth army for Burgundy.
Plus, both Austria and France may well try and influence the newborn - so French and Austrian intellectuals as advisors are present - invite in some Italians and former Romans, and you've got a regular intellectual hotbed, which could turn Burgundy into a second Renaissance hotbed. (Which arguably, the Netherlands was to an extent).
Whilst an unusual inheritance indeed - unless the infant is an absolute idiot, they could become one of the more important monarchs in European history. It'd be an exciting timeline I think - a united Netherlands, under a Renaissance King.
Margaret of York is gonna fight off any french unfluences on her only child. There are flemish and burgundian advisors to help little Philip. The late 15 century Burgundy was already on of western europes renaissance realms, but yes it will become even greater.
France is still gonna try to gobble up some parts like french-comte and Artois. A baby in the cradle is gonna find it hard to rally troops. Margaret is gonna have her hands full with the regency.
Louis XI is gonna take advantage of the situation and the burgundian themselves are gonna revolt because the strain of Charles the Bolds taxation and goverment erupted after Nancy.
France is still gonna try to gobble up some parts like french-comte and Artois. A baby in the cradle is gonna find it hard to rally troops. Margaret is gonna have her hands full with the regency.
Louis XI is gonna take advantage of the situation and the burgundian themselves are gonna revolt because the strain of Charles the Bolds taxation and goverment erupted after Nancy.
If Margaret of York has a girl instead, the inheritance is partitioned between Austria and France, the young girl gets married to the Dauphin.