What if Charlemagne was recognised as Western Roman Emperor?

Sulemain

Banned
One of the defining features of Charlemagne's reign was that he was recognised as Augustus, which pissed off the existing Roman Empire based in Constantinople. So I was wondering how, and what the consequences would be, if Charlemagne agreed only to be crowned as Augustus of the West, and recognised by the Romans of Constantinople as such?
 
The problem is that Charlemagne never really consented to be crowned in the first place. He was as shocked as the next man when the Pope whipped out the crown (and I happen to believe this since, if Charles had been asked, I doubt he would have allowed the Pope to crown him. The symbol put the pontiff above him, and no self respecting ruler would have allowed that to happen).

So, really, this is either going to be the Pope, on his own violation choosing to limit the reach of the title (and why would he do that?) OR word getting back to Charlemagne what is being planned.

If the later, I could see him being willing to still take up the mantle (after all, for all of his shock, he will more than willing to use the crown to it's fullest in OTL) but asking that the title be limited for political reasons. In such a scenario, I expect Ol Charles to take the crown from the Pope's hands and place it on his own brow.

There is ONE more scenario. Charlemagne reaches some accord with Irene (either marriage or not) and she agrees to officially recognize him as an Emperor, but only the Emperor of the West.
 
"Emperor of the West" didn't really exist as a legal concept. Whilst multiple Emperors would naturally split their responsibilities along geographical lines, the Empire was considered indivisible, and each Emperor (theoretically) retained authority over the whole Empire.
 
I mean technically he was, Michael I Rangabe was forced to recognize Charlemagne as Emperor, and Irene even attempted to establish a marriage alliance with Charlemagne.

The problem is that Charlemagne never really consented to be crowned in the first place. He was as shocked as the next man when the Pope whipped out the crown (and I happen to believe this since, if Charles had been asked, I doubt he would have allowed the Pope to crown him.
I'm pretty sure the story that Charlemagne was suprised by the Pope making him Emperor is heavily disputed. It was quite common for Emperors of Rome and Medieval Kings to partake in political theatre where they would "refuse" the throne only to reluctantly accept it.

The Coronation seems like it would have to have been planned ahead of time, I don't really buy the whole "Charles was as suprised by the Pope's actions as the next man" claim.
 
I'm pretty sure the story that Charlemagne was suprised by the Pope making him Emperor is heavily disputed. It was quite common for Emperors of Rome and Medieval Kings to partake in political theatre where they would "refuse" the throne only to reluctantly accept it.

The Coronation seems like it would have to have been planned ahead of time, I don't really buy the whole "Charles was as suprised by the Pope's actions as the next man" claim.

I also subscribe to this theory. At the very least Charlemagne would have seen the giant crown near the Pope and probably figured it out before the actual coronation. The man wasn't stupid.
 
I also subscribe to this theory. At the very least Charlemagne would have seen the giant crown near the Pope and probably figured it out before the actual coronation. The man wasn't stupid.
The main reason I don't trust the sources on this is that the Pope was politically dependent on the Franks to maintain his independence. Charlemagne had just saved the Papacy from the Lombards and restored the Donation of Pepin. Leo risking pissing Charlemagne off just doesn't seem very likely to me given the context. The Franks didn't need the Papacy to survive, but the Papacy sure needed the Franks. The Pope potentially compromising this relationship for a mere ceremonial title doesn't sit right with me.
 
The main reason I don't trust the sources on this is that the Pope was politically dependent on the Franks to maintain his independence. Charlemagne had just saved the Papacy from the Lombards and restored the Donation of Pepin. Leo risking pissing Charlemagne off just doesn't seem very likely to me given the context. The Franks didn't need the Papacy to survive, but the Papacy sure needed the Franks. The Pope potentially compromising this relationship for a mere ceremonial title doesn't sit right with me.

I don't think it'd be compromising the relationship for the Papacy to lend its authority to granting the Frankish crown even more legitimacy and heft than it already had. If nothing else it solidified that relationship instead of weakening it.
 
I don't think it'd be compromising the relationship for the Papacy to lend its authority to granting the Frankish crown even more legitimacy and heft than it already had. If nothing else it solidified that relationship instead of weakening it.
As with many things, it depends. Leo's action was pretty unprecedented and could have had a number of implications if we are to believe it was a suprise and I think Leo would have generally wished to avoid any suprises considering the political climate he was in.
 
Charlemagne could have spun it as the Pope being God's representative on Earth and the crowning gave him legitimacy, similar to the anointing of Old Testament kings. (The first king of Israel was actually Abimelech, but he is considered a usurper due to installing himself. The first legitimate king was Saul, anointed by Samuel.)
 
The legal justification was that there was no Emperor in Constantinople at the time, which in fact was correct.

Once there was an Emperor in Constantinople the situation got sorted out. There was nothing in Roman tradition the precluded having multiple Emperors at once.
 
I mean technically he was, Michael I Rangabe was forced to recognize Charlemagne as Emperor, and Irene even attempted to establish a marriage alliance with Charlemagne.


I'm pretty sure the story that Charlemagne was suprised by the Pope making him Emperor is heavily disputed. It was quite common for Emperors of Rome and Medieval Kings to partake in political theatre where they would "refuse" the throne only to reluctantly accept it.

The Coronation seems like it would have to have been planned ahead of time, I don't really buy the whole "Charles was as suprised by the Pope's actions as the next man" claim.


See, and here is why I disagree. The Pope was politically and militarily dependent upon the Frankish monarch. The symbology of the entire coronation placed the Pope over said Monarch in his ability to bestow a high - and politically important - title.

As others have said, Charlemagne was a smart guy. He would have certainly understood those implications. Which says to me, he really was caught by surprise and had no hand in the ceremony - if he had, it would have certainly played out in a way that placed himself at an equal footing (if not higher) than the Pope.
 
One of the defining features of Charlemagne's reign was that he was recognised as Augustus, which pissed off the existing Roman Empire based in Constantinople. So I was wondering how, and what the consequences would be, if Charlemagne agreed only to be crowned as Augustus of the West, and recognised by the Romans of Constantinople as such?

There was no "Augustus of the West." The Roman Empire was one, and it had been one for centuries. Neither Charlemagne, nor the Pope, nor the Byzantine Emperors had a notion of Roman imperium as being something other than a single entity, and its holder as the sole pinnacle of earthly power. Even if Charles and the Pope were to revise their notion of imperium and declare that the diarchy was back in town and Charles was "just" the Roman Emperor ruling in the west, there's no reason why the Byzantines would accept this, and we know this because they didn't. They have no reason to accept that they are now co-equals with barbarians and the Franks have no power to make them. The worst the Franks could ever manage was to mess them up in southern Italy a bit, and even Charlemagne's power extended only weakly and fitfully over the southern half of the peninsula.

In fact the emperors in Constantinople made peace with the idea of the Franks being "emperors" fairly swiftly; they admitted, albeit begrudgingly, Charles and his successors the title of basileos. They did not, however, accept them as emperors of the Romans - the Pope's appointee might be a basileos but he was at best Basileos Phrangias, not Basileos Rhomaion. In other words, they were willing to concede the title but would not accept a division of "the empire" - there was but one Rome with one Roman Emperor, and he ruled in Constantinople.
 
I'm pretty sure the story that Charlemagne was suprised by the Pope making him Emperor is heavily disputed. It was quite common for Emperors of Rome and Medieval Kings to partake in political theatre where they would "refuse" the throne only to reluctantly accept it.

This practice goes all the way back to Octavius Ceaser. It originated in the early imperial era when Rome was still theoretically a republic.
 
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