What if-- Burgundy?

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Burgundy is nowadays a region in France, but in medieval times it was a quite powerful state-like entity between France and (future) Germany. From time to time it stretched from the Netherlands to Provence. It's borders fluctuated constantly. Counties and duchies were conquered, bought and inherited, acquired through weddings and lost in wars. It was a multicultural and loosely controlled common market area.

Important cities in Burgundy were Brügge, Antwerpen, Ghent, Amsterdam, Lille, Arras, Brussels, Dijon.

Burgundy was one of the most enlightened and civilised region in Europe at that time, somewhat comparable to the Renaissance city-states in Northern Italy.

The Pope hoped Burgundy to help the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire to defeat the Turks, who had conquered Constantinople in 1453 and threatened Europe from the east. In exchange for this help Charles the Bold demanded sovereignty for Burgundy.

The emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, Frederick III, chickened out at the last moment; he feared that Charles the Bold would demand the crown of the emperor for himself. Charles was enraged by this treachery and went to war with his neighbours. He was killed in a battlefield in 1477. His daughter Marie married Maximilian Habsburg, the son of the emperor. This was pretty much the end of Burgundy.

(This information was from an essay book I'm currently reading)

Here's more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Burgundy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Burgundy_family_tree

Here are some nice maps of the lands of Burgundy:

http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/arth214_folder/burgundian_expansion.html

http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/arth214_folder/burgundy_intro.html

The possible flag of Burgundy:

http://www.fotw.us/flags/fr-bg.html

And of course there is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotharingia

What if Burgundy continued to exist? What if Frederick didn't chicken out? What if Charles the Bold became the founder of a sovereign kingdom of Burgundy? What if the multilingual and multicultural nation-state of Burgundy existed even today as a kind of "buffer state" between France and Germany (replacing, say, the entire OTL Belgium, parts of the Netherlands, parts of Germany/France, stretching down to the borders of Switzerland)?

How would European (and the world) history from 15th century onward be affected? Especially the relationship between France and Germany? Would there be the kind of antagonism and warfare between these countries as in OTL before 1945? Would the history of Europe be more peaceful or even more violent with Burgundy hanging around? Would the continued existence of Burgundy be even possible from the 15th century up until 20th/21st century?
 
Well alot would be different, I guess that Burgundy would indeed by a main competitor of France, Germany and England, and it would take some of the main sources for the struggles between France and Germany away. It is a very intrestesting scenario.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
What language did the Burgundians speak?

My understanding of European history is that the basis of their nationalism is very linguistic. If the people in an area all speak the same language, they see themselves as in the same nation. This is why Germany, or the German HRE, was often called a nation without a state, while Austria, which incorporated several languages in its Empire besides German, was called a state but not a nation.

If Burgundy remained independent then so might Aquitaine and Provence, maybe even Brittany and Normandy. France would become an area like the HRE or Italy, a congeries of smaller states.

If you have Burgundy do we ever get Louis XIV? because without him the 30 years war would probably tear up France as much as it did Germany.

I must find a good net reference on European dynastic history. One that shows the familys and the nations and is easy to understand. Can anyone help?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
NapoleonXIV said:
What language did the Burgundians speak?
An Latin Dialect in Southen France
And an Germanic dialect in the Nederlands (Nederlandsk/flamsk)

NapoleonXIV said:
"My understanding of European history is that the basis of their nationalism is very linguistic. If the people in an area all speak the same language, they see themselves as in the same nation. This is why Germany, or the German HRE, was often called a nation without a state, while Austria, which incorporated several languages in its Empire besides German, was called a state but not a nation.
Your are right and your are wrong
Many of language spoken by a nation in Europe is in truth dialects of other language, scandinavian as an eksample is only one language from a linguist point of view, but we scandinavians don´t see the same way
and a lot of nationalisme also build on other diffence (religion, historie and myths)
The truth are that any group who sees themselves as a people even if dont share a language or religion (swizt) are a people, or other who do share share these thing, but doesn´t see themselves as people (Denmark/Sveden/Norway) aren´t
 
Well, if you would compose the lands that include Burgundy today together you will get an mix of Dutch, German and French, however during the time that Burgundy was established this was very different.

How Burgundy would be relies on different stuff, there is a long range of different POD's. BTW, I think that the flag for Burgundy is most likely the Burgundian Cross:

http://flagspot.net/images/p/pr-cross.gif
 
The Alternate Finn said:
Burgundy is nowadays a region in France, but in medieval times it was a quite powerful state-like entity between France and (future) Germany. From time to time it stretched from the Netherlands to Provence. It's borders fluctuated constantly. Counties and duchies were conquered, bought and inherited, acquired through weddings and lost in wars. It was a multicultural and loosely controlled common market area.

It's important to remember that there are several different "Burgundies", in the medieval perspective.

There was the kingdom of Lotharingia, that arose in the partitions of the Carolignian Empire.

There was the Kingdom of Burgundy, which covered, basically, much of Switzerland, southeast France, and northwest Italy.

Then there was the Duchy of Burgundy, which was part of the kingdom of France.

The Pope hoped Burgundy to help the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire to defeat the Turks, who had conquered Constantinople in 1453 and threatened Europe from the east. In exchange for this help Charles the Bold demanded sovereignty for Burgundy

Essentially, yes. He wanted to be the king of Lotharingia; or, perhaps, a new kingdom of Belgica, based on the tribe that had lived there in the Roman era.

He was killed in a battlefield in 1477. His daughter Marie married Maximilian Habsburg, the son of the emperor. This was pretty much the end of Burgundy.

Or was it? Most of the resources that the Hapsburgs, especially Charles V, used in their wars came from Burgundy.


How would European (and the world) history from 15th century onward be affected? Especially the relationship between France and Germany? Would there be the kind of antagonism and warfare between these countries as in OTL before 1945? Would the history of Europe be more peaceful or even more violent with Burgundy hanging around? Would the continued existence of Burgundy be even possible from the 15th century up until 20th/21st century?
The effects would be huge even before then.

Burgundy would continue to threaten France, and it is likely that the French monarchs would be unwilling or unable to intervene in Italy. Absent the Italian wars, perhaps nascent industrial revolution of northern Italy takes off?

How would Burgundy fare in the Reformation? Something like the Anglican Church would be most useful in uniting its people, wouldn't it?
 
fortyseven said:
There might not even be a France.

France had already won the 100 years war, and reduced the French holdings in France to Calais.

The spider king, Louis XI, was the monarch at this time, and he was easily one of the sharpest minds of his era. A possible POD would involve making him dumber, but even so, I don't think it's too probable for France to collapse.
 
Nah, Burgundy would rule from the Alps to the North Sea, in the richest regions of nowadays Europe. I think another great power, at such an critical time (before the exploration of the new world) would be so critical that it would change the entire geopolitical situation of europe, and the impact would be big in the new world, especially if they would have the Netherlands.

After reading up on Charles the Bold, I think he could have became an great ruler if he wouldn't have died...I guess that another monarchy would have indeed raisen up, and one that would have been able to threaten it's neighbours, remember that the Burgundy under Charles the Bold was roughly the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of Northern France and parts of Western Germany, and I do think that the region wouldn't have been as multi-cultural (with all the problems that come with it) as today.

I guess that Burgundy would be an major force in European politics, I guess it would be alligning itself with the Swiss and/or Habsburg, and that it would an major colonial power.
 
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The other interesting option is, what if after Charles' death Marie hadn't married into the Habsburgs? There was talk of her marrying a local noble, Adolf of Gelders or one of the Cleves-Ravensteins. What would be the fate of a "Burgundian" Netherlandish state without the Habsburg Austrian-Spanish complications? We might perhaps have seen a united Netherlands right the way into modern times without the complications of the Eighty Years' War.
 
Duncan said:
The other interesting option is, what if after Charles' death Marie hadn't married into the Habsburgs? There was talk of her marrying a local noble, Adolf of Gelders or one of the Cleves-Ravensteins. What would be the fate of a "Burgundian" Netherlandish state without the Habsburg Austrian-Spanish complications? We might perhaps have seen a united Netherlands right the way into modern times without the complications of the Eighty Years' War.
That is what I think would be interesting. This has clear implications down the line, but might this Burgundy lose control of the duchy for which it is named itself?
 
Indeed, it stands in a vulnerable position between France and the Holy Roman Empire, what would the possibilities be of some kind of an seperate Habsburg line? That you have the Spanish Habsburg, the Austrian Habsburg and the Burgundian Habsburg? It would ensure the independence of Burgundy, as it would have strong allies, and it would ensure that the Habsburg are free to do some serious colonization, however the Habsburg might not be so fond of protestantism, and there could very well be another dutch revolt, and the establishment of the United Provinces could still come along.

I think that the first 50 years after Charles the Bold will be the most dangerous of Burgundy, however after that they should be fairly secure.
 
Qantrix said:
Indeed, it stands in a vulnerable position between France and the Holy Roman Empire, what would the possibilities be of some kind of an seperate Habsburg line? That you have the Spanish Habsburg, the Austrian Habsburg and the Burgundian Habsburg? It would ensure the independence of Burgundy, as it would have strong allies, and it would ensure that the Habsburg are free to do some serious colonization, however the Habsburg might not be so fond of protestantism, and there could very well be another dutch revolt, and the establishment of the United Provinces could still come along.

I think that the first 50 years after Charles the Bold will be the most dangerous of Burgundy, however after that they should be fairly secure.
Maybe a Dutch-based Burgundy endorses Protestantism?

It would not be impissible for Burgundy to lose the duchy from which it started. Hapsburg is in Switzerland, after all.
 
Wendell said:
That is what I think would be interesting. This has clear implications down the line, but might this Burgundy lose control of the duchy for which it is named itself?
Almost certainly; they lost the Duchy to France even with the Habsburg involvement, so I don't see how they can hold it without. The Habsburgs did hold on to the County of Burgundy, the Franche-Comté; a non-Habsburg Netherlands-Burgundy probably couldn't, at least not for the long run. But the County was Imperial territory, whereas the Duchy had always owed fealty to France, so the Emperor and others might not accept a French conquest. I don't know, therefore, what would happen to the Franche-Comté.
 
Qantrix said:
Indeed, it stands in a vulnerable position between France and the Holy Roman Empire, what would the possibilities be of some kind of an seperate Habsburg line? That you have the Spanish Habsburg, the Austrian Habsburg and the Burgundian Habsburg?
You did almost get that effect in the late 16th century, with a semi-independent Archdule ruling in Brussels, but by then of course the North has gone its own way. A completely separate Netherlandish Habsburg line would require a PoD after Philip the Fair's Spanish marriage - maybe he lives a bit llonger, to have more children?
 
Duncan said:
The other interesting option is, what if after Charles' death Marie hadn't married into the Habsburgs? There was talk of her marrying a local noble, Adolf of Gelders or one of the Cleves-Ravensteins. What would be the fate of a "Burgundian" Netherlandish state without the Habsburg Austrian-Spanish complications? We might perhaps have seen a united Netherlands right the way into modern times without the complications of the Eighty Years' War.

I like this idea, especially with Cleves. Such a union, if it was to go protestant, would have an awfully good chance to take Cologne, eh?
 
:D :D :D :D Maybe first Burgundian-Habsburg connection and then Orange-Nassau and Burgundy-Habsburg connection, turning the Burgundian Habsburg protestant, and adding new lands.

But indeed, the Burgundian Heartlands are very, very vulnerable to France.....what would be the situation of Switzerland and Savoy at this point?
 
Well, I have been reading up to this part (mostly I stumbled upon it in an dutch history book I was reading) so I decided to dig this thread up....

King Frederick was irritated with the behaviour of Charles the Bold, so let's just assume he tones down his behaviour. During the meeting in Trier, Charles decided to claim lot's of lands, let's just say he takes away one claim (Savoy seems to be the best for this) and the King accepts, and crowns him King. The Marriage between Mary and Maximillian is now certain, and I guess we will have an Burgundian Habsburg besides the Spanish and the Austrian in the near future.

Burgundy is now in a much stronger position, so what's next, in real-life Charles now got himself into lot's of problems, which would mark the ending of the Burgundy...this could have been quite different if he was crowned King.
 
Bumping this thread because OH MAN I LOVE BURGUNDY.

However, the Burgundian succession would have been an issue with or without Charles' untimely death, so the issue remains---what becomes of the carefully-assembled and far from centralized Duchy of Burgundy?

1 - On the political side Charles gets his sovereignty (diplomatically or through war---without dying) and declares something like the Grand Duchy of Burgundy (similar to the Habsburg Archduchy of Austria) to better reflect this new status and further centralize the realm. To add to this, he could better consolidate the Estates General and dissolve some of the smaller, more-easily lost titles under the Duchy. A king-level title would only worsen relations with the Emperor (see: King -in- Prussia Frederick I Hohenzollern), so this is probably further off in an AH for Burgundy than within Charles' lifetime.

2 - Mary of Burgundy somehow needs to be married such that the lands don't get inherited away from the House of Valois-Burgundy. Succession is a bitch, but this needs to be reconciled for a Burgundy AHTL to work. Hopefully Mary's offspring would have better luck than her own siblings, all of whom died before reaching maturity.

I honestly can't think, right now, of any way for the lands of Burgundy under Charles the Bold to remain as such due to succession-related b.s.

Suggestions?
 
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