"What-if" British weapons of WW1 & WW2

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LSA .276 self-loading rifle

This rifle was submitted to the Small Arms Committee in 1910, and was developed by Thomas R. Ashton of London Small Arms. It was recoil-operated with a tilting bolt which was engaged by a wedge in the rear interior of the receiver. The chambering was in .276 Enfield and the gun was fed by detachable SMLE-type magazines (there seems to have been no clip-feed guide). The LSA rifle gave bad tests and was considered particularly susceptible to sand and dirt, a common flaw of early self-loaders. It was rejected and no further action was taken.

The use of SMLE-pattern components such as the magazine gives this rifle some compatibility with the standard British service rifle. It would be interesting to see a hypothetical .303 version adopted in limited quantities by the British in about 1915 - 1916 to provide troops with an infantry automatic weapon. Most other militaries in the war investigated the concept of providing increased individual firepower to their troops - the French with the Chauchat & RSC, the Germans with the M.P.18,I, the Austrians with the M.12/P16 & Sturmpistole, and the Italians with the Villar Perosa & Revelli-Beretta. The closest the British had was the Lewis gun. While there is little chance that the LSA rifle would've been able to cope with the mud of the Western Front, possible roles for the rifle could be an aerial observer's weapon or a marksman rifle.

(Side note: I like to imagine that this rifle would've been nicknamed the "Lisa" if it were adopted.)

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BSA-Norman 7x63mm inclined bolt rifle

The BSA-Norman was designed by George Norman of BSA in 1911. The concept of this gun was to employ an inclined bolt which ran at a lower angle to the firer's eyeline, so as to allow the user to cycle the bolt whilst remaining sighted on their target. The bolt face was a separate piece that did not rotate with the bolt, and the bolt guide ran down the comb of the stock. Interestingly the rifle was chambered for a proprietary rimless cartridge, 7x63mm Eley. I don't know of any other guns that were chambered in this round. The cartridge proposed as a possible replacement for .303 but the British Army were more interested in .276 Enfield.

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The BSA-Norman rifle was trialed briefly in March 1913 and reportedly gave a "disastrous" performance. Neither the concept nor the cartridge were developed any further, and priority was given to other projects such as the .276 Pattern 13 rifle.

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A British SMG in World War I?

In October 1915 an Italian representative, Dr. Bernachi, went to Britain to demonstrate their new 9mm "Pistola Mitragliatrice". It was tested at Hythe and Enfield and the examining officer from the Small Arms Committee, calling it the "Villar Perosa machine-gun" (first recorded use of that name), described it as "two long-barreled automatic pistols connected together", adding that it was "very suitable for trench work". A proposal was sent to the General Headquarters in France asking if such a weapon was required by British troops but the GHQ did not notice the value in the concept that the SAC had picked up on. The subsequent year, a unique variant of the Villar Perosa chambered in .455 Webley Auto was sent to Britain for testing, but by this time the GHQ was already set against the idea and it was not investigated any further.

Had the GHQ not been so quick to dismiss the Villar Perosa, the .455 model could've led to something more - adoption in its current form was unlikely, but the British could've adapted the gun into something like the Italian Revelli-Beretta carbine or the O.V.P. submachine gun:

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Use of a .455 SMG by British "stormtroopers" in 1916 is perhaps wishful thinking. But a .455 O.V.P. could have been a pretty handy weapon for pilots and aerial observers, as the Italians themselves noticed when they issued their 9mm O.V.P. to airmen in 1918. On the other hand, a semi-automatic .455 carbine in the style of the Italian Revelli-Beretta would have been a suitable gun for "non-tooth" personnel who were not issued a rifle. Britain was in fact the only major combatant in World War I not to develop a submachine gun (except perhaps the Ottomans).

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BSA-Király machine carbine

The BSA-Király machine carbine came about as a collaboration between BSA and the Hungarian designer Pál de Király, with Mark Dineley acting as the middleman between the two parties. It was proposed to the War Office in May 1939 and a small batch of prototypes were produced by BSA for trials, including a short-barreled model and a long-barreled model. Essentially the gun was derived from the SIG MKMO submachine gun for which Király had done some design work, mainly in the use of a lever-delayed blowback action which gave a fire rate of 730rpm. It was chambered in 9x25mm Mauser Export and took MKMO magazines. The trigger mechanism was remarkably complex, using a flywheel and spring, but Király suggested that this could be replaced by a simple sear if the gun were to go into full production. Dineley also suggested that a production version should incorporate the MKMO's folding magazine. BSA quoted a price of £5 per unit.

A production version of the BSA-Király probably would've looked something like the Danuvia SMG adopted by the Hungarians in 1939:
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The BSA-Király was tested briefly by the Ordnance Board in 1939 but no interest from the British Army materialized and the concept was not revived in 1940 - possibly because of difficulties over securing the rights from Király. In any case, this was probably the Army's best option prior to WWII. It was high-quality, based on a proven design, and above all reasonably-priced, especially compared to other contemporary SMGs. BSA were ready to manufacture the gun in 1939 and it been adopted in September, hundreds could've been ready for issue to the BEF by May - June 1940. Possible name - "BESAK" (similar to "BESA", but with -Király added as a suffix).

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The British "Schmeisser"

The story of the British scramble to adopt an SMG after Dunkirk is fairly well-known by now, with the results being the Lanchester and Sten machine carbines, which were both essentially derived from the German M.P.28,II submachine gun. Lesser-known is a proposal by the Air Ministry for 10,000 British-made copies of the "Schmeisser" - the MP 38. BSA went so far as to draw up the plans for such a gun. But it was never made, trumped by a similar proposal by the Admiralty for a copy of the M.P.28,II (which became the Lanchester). Why the Ordnance Board decided to grant the Admiralty's request instead of the Air Ministry's is pretty inexplicable, as the MP 38 was significantly cheaper to manufacture than the M.P.28,II. The Ordnance Board had even been made aware of the MP 38's efficiency as early as May 1939, when the Director of Artillery informed the OB that "1,000 of this make could be procured at very short notice". If the Ordnance Board had heeded this advice, the Royal Navy and the RAF could have been issued BSA-made MP 38s throughout the course of the war. Adoption by the Army was probably less likely given their commitment to the Sten gun.

A British "assault rifle" in 1940?

Almost immediately after the BEF got to France in December 1939, they sent a request to the Ordnance Board asking for an immediate supply of "machine carbines or gangster guns" (i.e. submachine guns). Field trials were arranged in which the Ordnance Board sent over seven trial SMGs which included the Hyde, Thompson, Steyr-Solothurn, and Suomi. Also very interestingly, instructions were given to RSAF Enfield to convert several self-loading rifles to give automatic fire. The rifles in question were the Johnson rifle of 1938, the ZH-29 from Czechoslovakia, and an as-yet unidentified prototype known as the "Y.S.L." These were supposed to offer a potential substitute for an SMG.

Trials were also arranged to test the Lightened Lewis and Soley-Lewis machine-guns in the role of a hip-fired MG. The BEF liked the Finnish Suomi gun the best but for obvious reasons there would be difficulty in procuring it. The Steyr-Solothurn gun was also unavailable due to Austria's annexation and the Hyde was not in production. This really left the Thompson as the only viable choice, and by February 1940 the British Purchasing Commission placed an order for 450 Thompsons (which raised to 107,500 by December). Interestingly the OB initially recommended that the Thompson be adopted in .380 caliber, but this was not followed through.

Any other weapon concepts that you'd like to have seen capitalized on?
 
Britain acquires a small number of Soviet SVT 38's from the Finns during the Winter War (a gesture of thanks for the supply of British weapons). These are sent to either RSAF Enfield or BSA and copied in .303 for testing. By 1942 these are being issued to the Parachute Regiment and the Commandos to replace their Lee Enfields and increase the firepower of the raiding forces.
 
Any other weapon concepts that you'd like to have seen capitalized on?
Well there is the Farquhar-Hill automatic rifle from 1908. The drum was a bit of an issue, but with an improved magazine and the ability to be loaded from stripper clips it would have been a handy gun for trench raiders.

The light machine gun version from the interwar period might have been a possible challenger to the Lewis gun in the interwar period. I wouldn’t expect it to get selected with the amount of Lewis guns around. And it probably wouldn’t compete against the Bren or the Vickers-Berthier. But it might at least get some export sales.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farquhar–Hill_rifle

My go to for a British SLR for WW2 is the FN 37. It was more of a prototype than a finished product, but if Enfield picked up Dieudonne Saive’s idea I think they would probably make it into something like the FN 49 before WW2.
 
1912.

British engineers work over the Ross Rifle fixing the heat treatment issues and loosening the tolerances to allow it to reliably use service ammunition. Also the Barrel is shortened to the same length as the S.M.L.E. Not used in the trenches by the British Army it is used as a reserve and rear area weapon as well as seeing out the war with the Canadians. Semi Auto conversions see limited front line service in the last 12 months of the Great War.
 
My go to for a British SLR for WW2 is the FN 37. It was more of a prototype than a finished product, but if Enfield picked up Dieudonne Saive’s idea I think they would probably make it into something like the FN 49 before WW2.
RSAF Enfield actually developed the SLEM-1 rifle in 1944 which was essentially exactly what you describe, a British FN-49:
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The early prototypes of the FN FAL rifle were also developed at Enfield shortly after the war.
 
Not sure what your criteria are here, but isn’t the OTL Farquhar–Hill rifle the most obvious WW1 what-if? They supposedly ordered a whole bunch in 1918 and shaving a few years off that program seems more likely than getting either of these two rifles through.

As for the MP.28 vs MP.38 my guess would be that the more modern design wasn’t as well suited to the available British manufacturing capacity. Stamping is a bit convoluted to set up if what you mostly have is lathes and mills.

Or it could be that the Air Ministry and the army just didn't play nice - I have often wondered WTF was going on with buying Czech tank machine guns in 8mm Mauser when the RAF already had a factory spamming out .303 brownings.
 
Speaking of the Farquhar-Hill


Its a shame this never continued.

 
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Not sure what your criteria are here, but isn’t the OTL Farquhar–Hill rifle the most obvious WW1 what-if? They supposedly ordered a whole bunch in 1918 and shaving a few years off that program seems more likely than getting either of these two rifles through.

As for the MP.28 vs MP.38 my guess would be that the more modern design wasn’t as well suited to the available British manufacturing capacity. Stamping is a bit convoluted to set up if what you mostly have is lathes and mills.

Or it could be that the Air Ministry and the army just didn't play nice - I have often wondered WTF was going on with buying Czech tank machine guns in 8mm Mauser when the RAF already had a factory spamming out .303 brownings.
The Farquhar-Hill was actually adopted, with 100,000 ordered, so yes it is the most obvious choice. The only thing stopping it from getting into the hands of British troops was the fact that the war ended in 1918.

On the topic of the Farquhar-Hill, there was a selective-fire version made in 1928, so the concept evidently wasn't fully dead even a decade after its cancellation:
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As for criteria, there isn't really one. Stuff like the BSA-Norman had zero chance of ever being adopted in OT. Just thought I'd share to provide inspiration to anyone who wants to use the concept in an AH timeline. Anything goes!
 
1932: the Pedersen trials are expanded; the Garand, is also included. Both are in 276 calibre. A decision is taken to explore a rimless .30 cartridge which will also feed through the Lee bolt action ( an easy conversion as the vast number of 7.62 No 4 conversions will testify.) A request is put forward for modified weapons fitted with box magazines; charger or clip loading is to be retained. Vickers Armstrong undertake the work on the Pedersens; the Springfield Aresenal are prepared to supply a .30 calibre rifle but cannot undertake the conversion to detachable box magazine owing to pressure of work on the US programme. BSA are contracted to work on the Garand.
After further trials small batches of both weapons are ordered for troop trials; the Petersen batch from Vickers Armstrong, the Garand from BSA.......
 
RSAF Enfield actually developed the SLEM-1 rifle in 1944 which was essentially exactly what you describe, a British FN-49:
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The early prototypes of the FN FAL rifle were also developed at Enfield shortly after the war.
I'm aware. And yep, that was basically what I was thinking.

Pistols don't change much in combat, but I am also a fan of the Webley Automatic:


Its a touch heavy, and it looks funny but it is apparently a very reliable and pleasant gun to shoot. The Webley Automatic Round is a touch more powerful than the .45 ACP and Webley was famous for making adaptable weapons (they sold a lot of them commercially and were open to customization). The Navy loved it but the Army wasn't really interested at the time. They also didn't like the grip safety. However, Webley had made a similar version with a more conventional safety for commercial sale (in 9mm too).

LSA .276 self-loading rifle
Interesting. The .276 was, I think, a wrong turn in development, but it did bring about the P14, which was probably the best sniper rifle in WW1. Would be interesting if it also produced an SLR.

BSA-Norman 7x63mm inclined bolt rifle
Not sure the benefit would be worth the trouble. Interesting idea though.

A British SMG in World War I?
Interesting. Haven't heard of this one. Any information on why they turned it down?

BSA-Király machine carbine
If the British were serious about one pre-war it seems like a good option. It or the Suomi. Both are a little heavy and complicated compared to what they ended up with though. And it would be pretty hard to make a Sten equivalent out of the Kiraly.
 
Interesting. Haven't heard of this one. Any information on why they turned it down?
The GHQ was pretty blunt and just said they weren't interested in it. However their dismissive attitude toward the M.P.18,I in September 1918 sheds some light on their thinking in regard to SMGs:

"A really penetrating bullet is necessary to ensure that the enemy's problems in regard to penetration shall remain difficult and to prevent the use of body armour. A heavy high velocity bullet of small calibre is also required to obtain a flat trajectory. It therefore follows that no weapon of the pistol nature can ever replace the rifle as the Infantryman's main arm. Its issue will be limited to those who, for some reason or another, cannot carry a rifle. No "pistol gun" resembling this particular German weapon is required therefore in the British Army since it is apparently designed as a substitute for rifles and auto rifles and this violates the principles already stated in this minute."

So basically the GHQ was operating on the idea that any infantryman who can carry a rifle should carry a rifle. They simply didn't seem to have been able to grasp the concept that the Germans were using the M.P.18,I as a complimentary weapon to the infantry rifle, or were otherwise vehemently opposed to such an idea.
Its a touch heavy, and it looks funny but it is apparently a very reliable and pleasant gun to shoot. The Webley Automatic Round is a touch more powerful than the .45 ACP and Webley was famous for making adaptable weapons (they sold a lot of them commercially and were open to customization). The Navy loved it but the Army wasn't really interested at the time. They also didn't like the grip safety. However, Webley had made a similar version with a more conventional safety for commercial sale (in 9mm too).
I've seen a stocked version which was issued on a limited basis to the RFC:
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Stick on a fire selector which holds the trigger sear down and you've got yourself a .455 Auto machine-pistol, a la the Steyr M.12/P16 (also in that pic) which the Austrians used on the Italian Front. Except better than the Steyr machine-pistol, because it'd actually have a detachable magazine and not have to be fed by two 8-round stripper clips.

Terrible idea? Probably.
 
The Karabin samopowtarzalny wzór 38M (Kbsp wz. 38M self-repeating rifle Model 38M), was a prototype Polish 7.92mm semi-automatic rifle used by the Polish Army during the Invasion of Poland of 1939. Have some of these sent to the UK in 1939.
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Not only is this rifle easy to field strip, it has the added advantage that the operating system is not that different from the Bren gun. So the machining process are not unknown.
These would definitely have been useful IMHO
 
The Karabin samopowtarzalny wzór 38M (Kbsp wz. 38M self-repeating rifle Model 38M), was a prototype Polish 7.92mm semi-automatic rifle used by the Polish Army during the Invasion of Poland of 1939. Have some of these sent to the UK in 1939.
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Not only is this rifle easy to field strip, it has the added advantage that the operating system is not that different from the Bren gun. So the machining process are not unknown.
These would definitely have been useful IMHO
No wz.38Ms made it to Britain in OT but some Czech experimental self-loaders by Frantisek Janeček did make it to Enfield:
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Only about 10 were ever made; they were gas-operated and fed from detachable box magazines. These rifles don't seem to have had any influence on British SLR design during the war but Janeček did work on the "Littlejohn" adapter for the QF 2pdr. Would've been interesting to see the Janeček gas operation applied to a British rifle like the P14 or SMLE.
 
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I remember reading that one (not at the time it was written). Its great work, though I tend to go a different way on the calibre question.

Since small arms have not been specified as the only options I will add one outside of that envelope:

-This is a weird one, but hear me out. It is actually a WW2 design (patented in 1937) but it is based off the ideas and experience of a Lieutenant from the Machine Gun Corps from WW1. He was unable to bring his ideas to fruition before the war ended but worked on it in the interwar period. It would have been of limited use in WW2 but, if he had managed to actually get something even remotely similar with WW1 technology before the end of the conflict the ability to raise machine guns up above a trench and drop down to drive forward with the infantry could be a useful machine. No guarantees, but interesting to think about
 
As for the MP.28 vs MP.38 my guess would be that the more modern design wasn’t as well suited to the available British manufacturing capacity. Stamping is a bit convoluted to set up if what you mostly have is lathes and mills.
This is what I thought, but straight from the horse's mouth:

"The Air Ministry has now become interested in a lighter type of 9mm Schmeisser type of parachutist weapon and contemplated an order for 10,000 of this model. The production aspect of each Schmeisser type of weapon was then reviewed. It was revealed that neither type alone presents any difficulty in production on a component basis and no interruption would result."
- OB Proceeding 8228/August 12th 1940

It seems that the Admiralty was just bloody-minded enough to get their own way. I also have no idea why the Army expressed no interest in the MP 38 idea - seems like it could've been ready a lot quicker than the Sten gun.
 
Britain acquires a small number of Soviet SVT 38's from the Finns during the Winter War (a gesture of thanks for the supply of British weapons). These are sent to either RSAF Enfield or BSA and copied in .303 for testing. By 1942 these are being issued to the Parachute Regiment and the Commandos to replace their Lee Enfields and increase the firepower of the raiding forces.

Didn't the SVT38s/SVT 40's have a lot of problems with reliability?

Seems like if you want a semi auto weapon in the period for the Para's and such you might be able to get some sort of limited production agreement for Garands or I suppose Johnson Semi Auto Rifles. I'm not sure if a Garand would work well in .303 but it seems easier then trying to fix everything wrong with the SVT 38.
 
The French MAS 40 was developed post war into an excellent semi auto rifle. Had the British wanted a semi auto rifle they could have taken it, adapted it to .303 and adopted it. But they were perfectly happy with the SMLE,
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The French MAS 40 was developed post war into an excellent semi auto rifle. Had the British wanted a semi auto rifle they could have taken it, adapted it to .303 and adopted it. But they were perfectly happy with the SMLE,
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Or go one step further and adopt 7.5mm for whatever rifle becomes the No 4 rifle (MAS 40?) and the BREN

That's one hell of a letter of intent
 
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