"What-if" British weapons of WW1 & WW2

Driftless

Donor
The RAF did actually have a legitimate need for SMGs - got to remember that this was at the height of the invasion scare and it was expected that German paratroopers would attempt to capture British airbases to pave the way for a land invasion. The Lanchester wasn't just for the Navy, it was for RAF issue too.

The Lanchester was a good piece of kit, but it's just slightly odd that the Ordnance Board would pass up a substantially cheaper and more efficient SMG in favour of an outdated M.P.28,II clone, especially since there was such a panic about mass-producing SMGs as quickly as possible.
I can think of a couple of reasons: (1) its performance was known. Basically, "the bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" kind of thought pattern. (2) The more cynical, whoever was peddling the Lanchester said they'd have a thousand units delivered in 10 days - or some other equally bogus timeframe.
 
I'm aware. And yep, that was basically what I was thinking.

Pistols don't change much in combat, but I am also a fan of the Webley Automatic:


Its a touch heavy, and it looks funny but it is apparently a very reliable and pleasant gun to shoot. The Webley Automatic Round is a touch more powerful than the .45 ACP and Webley was famous for making adaptable weapons (they sold a lot of them commercially and were open to customization). The Navy loved it but the Army wasn't really interested at the time. They also didn't like the grip safety. However, Webley had made a similar version with a more conventional safety for commercial sale (in 9mm too).
I would vehemently disagree, having fired two of them. The grip ergonomics are terrible, there's no natural 'point and shoot'. It's reliability in the Great War (it was RFC, RN and RHA issue) was rated as poor, this was mainly an ammunition problem but the breech lock was prone to being jammed by dirt.
The use of fulminate/cordite small arms ammunition by the UK was one of the main issues with the pistol. Overall it was heavy, clumsy and a grossly over-complicated and expensive design.
The best hope of switching the UK to a pistol was scrapping the adoption of the .38 Enfield in the '30s in favour of something better.
 
I would vehemently disagree, having fired two of them. The grip ergonomics are terrible, there's no natural 'point and shoot'. It's reliability in the Great War (it was RFC, RN and RHA issue) was rated as poor, this was mainly an ammunition problem but the breech lock was prone to being jammed by dirt.
The use of fulminate/cordite small arms ammunition by the UK was one of the main issues with the pistol. Overall it was heavy, clumsy and a grossly over-complicated and expensive design.
The best hope of switching the UK to a pistol was scrapping the adoption of the .38 Enfield in the '30s in favour of something better.
I haven't fired one, so I will have to take your word for it. That said I have seen mixed reports on its ease of firing:
C&Rsenal sort of agrees with you:

Forgotten Weapons liked it:

TFB TV fired a 1910 version and also liked it:
 
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I haven't fired one, so I will have to take your word for it. That said I have seen mixed reports on its ease of firing:
C&Rsenal sort of agrees with you:

Forgotten Weapons liked it:

TFB TV fired a 1910 version and also liked it:
I may have been overly harsh, I learned on more modern designs (HP and Glock mainly) but I found the grip terrible. It was significantly more expensive in its day than comparable revolvers.
 
I may have been overly harsh, I learned on more modern designs (HP and Glock mainly) but I found the grip terrible. It was significantly more expensive in its day than comparable revolvers.
Yeah, it definitely would not compete against those.

The expense would be an issue. If they were issuing them in the tens of thousands I would hope they would find ways to improve the manufacturing and bring the cost down. Not sure if that would actually happen though. I would expect at some point Enfield would start making a cheaper knockoff that would not be as good for general issue.
 
Yeah, it definitely would not compete against those.

The expense would be an issue. If they were issuing them in the tens of thousands I would hope they would find ways to improve the manufacturing and bring the cost down. Not sure if that would actually happen though. I would expect at some point Enfield would start making a cheaper knockoff that would not be as good for general issue.
By the '30s the High Power was available and actually cheaper than the Webley. In fact if the UK was interested they could have joined the programme that preceded it in the 20s.
 
By the '30s the High Power was available and actually cheaper than the Webley. In fact if the UK was interested they could have joined the programme that preceded it in the 20s.
Licencing the Hi Power could conceivably lead to Britain joining FN in developing their self loading rifle.
 
Chennault_AT_carrier.png

Chennault AT carrier with a 20mm recoilless rifle. Somewhat resembles an armoured bobsleigh.

Anyone ever heard of this thing? I've only got this one photo, without much information.
That's a VP (Voltigeur-Patrouiller) ultra light AFV designed by Victor Bouffort for Fouga. It packed a U.S. Made 106mm RCL plus a 20mm. It was part of a number of studies for light AFV, the most interesting of which was the Even, part of a new concept of mechanised operations introduced by General Juin in the 50s
1615070893782.png

L : 3,45 m W :1,90 m H :0,80 m Weight :2500 kg Porsche 1600 cm3 Engine. The prototype was later used as a base for a Polar exploration vehicle.
 
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It’s a great idea. Doesn’t help much for WW1 though.
The UK had going through a lot of "standard" sidearms in the late nineteenth century (.442, .450, .476, .455). I can't see them going for an autoloader until they're more established (plus the whole 7mm debacle was consuming resources). Of course there's always the Mars.....
One possibly is the Mauser 96, perhaps chambered for a British .455 pistol cartridge? Maybe Winston does something heroic in South Africa?
 
Licencing the Hi Power could conceivably lead to Britain joining FN in developing their self loading rifle.
Or kept the original project, which historically moved very slowly. Perhaps the original Saive design is more popular at Versailles and continues development, complete with sixteen round magazine, and the UK joins in...
 
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Westly Richards had a licence to produce the C96.
I believe that was just to import and sell the pistol in the UK, though I believe (and this is based only on word of mouth from years ago) that they converted a few to the twenty round configuration for customers.
Around 1900-1910 it was a popular British sidearm, though falling foul of the 'Service Ammunition' requirement. The .455 rimmed revolver cartridge seems an unlikely choice to develop an autoloader around (though stranger things have happened) so it'd need a different cartridge, either the 7.63mm or 9mm rounds or something new.
Perhaps the US adopts and licenses the Mauser chambered for a .41/.45 round and this spreads?
 

marathag

Banned
The expense would be an issue. If they were issuing them in the tens of thousands I would hope they would find ways to improve the manufacturing and bring the cost down.
In the 1910s, a Colt 38 automatic cost twice as much as a top quality S&W 38 revolver, and you could buy 8-10 Iver Johnson or H&R revolvers in 38S&W(above average quality) for the cost of that single Colt. The Webley SL was even more expensive than the Colt
 
The Webley SL was even more expensive than the Colt
This is a lesser issue to the pre WWI British Military as it was usually only officers who used handguns and they had to buy their own. Only small numbers of specialist troops would actually be issued them such as MP's.
 
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Not sure if this is beyond the scope of this thread but here goes, Tanks.

Perhaps taking notes from the development of the Lewis Gun, but maybe the British adopt a locally designed engine instead of the already obsolescent Liberty engine (Napier Lion?).

IOTL the Valentine infantry tank design was derived from the unsuccessful Mark II "Heavy Cruiser" tank. Instead of conceiving the crusader the Mark II design is updated with the latest suspension and engine for a rough and ready cruiser design. The IIB is inevitably nicknamed the Hamlet and the later Valentines are build as later marks of this design, proving to be a surprisingly successful tank, capable of being up armoured and armed to the standard of OTLs later Valentines, but retaining speed comparable to OTL's crusader.
 
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I believe that was just to import and sell the pistol in the UK, though I believe (and this is based only on word of mouth from years ago) that they converted a few to the twenty round configuration for customers.
Around 1900-1910 it was a popular British sidearm, though falling foul of the 'Service Ammunition' requirement. The .455 rimmed revolver cartridge seems an unlikely choice to develop an autoloader around (though stranger things have happened) so it'd need a different cartridge, either the 7.63mm or 9mm rounds or something new.
Perhaps the US adopts and licenses the Mauser chambered for a .41/.45 round and this spreads?
The 9mm seems pretty feasible, as the Germans would produce a large number of the "Rotneuns" later on...
 
The 9mm seems pretty feasible, as the Germans would produce a large number of the "Rotneuns" later on...
Given the similarities between the cartridges that was a simple change. I just don't see the UK adopting either .30" or .36" (in their terms) in the 1900s but there's no reason either W-R or a sufficiently motivated Mauser (probably the former as I can't see the UK adopting a weapon not in local production) developing a suitable ".455" pistol cartridge and a modified C96 for it, The Chinese did after all.
Then again given the Mauser's fixed internal magazine a version chambered for .455 SAA is imaginable (a version for the 8mm A-H revolver round existed, if in small quantities) but the issues of low chamber pressure and unjacketed bullet might be problematic.
 
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