What if Britain had stayed out of WW1?

[MatthewB]

Personally, I think that Russia would turn into a Constitutional Monarchy, and that Britain would support more subversive means of opposing the German hegemony on the conflict. Also, what and where would military tactic and technology advancements take place?

Why? This thread doesn't stop WW1, it just keeps Britain out of it. So, Russia and Germany are still at war, and Russia has presumably lost, with the revolutions happening earlier. Why would Russia become a Constitutional Monarchy?

 

[Marc]

The Septemberprogramm wasn't even an official policy of the German government.

Agree, it wasn't. But it was reflective of the thought processes of a very ambitious and jealous regime. My take is that by the early 1900's the Kaiserreich was thinking Napoleonic about Europe.

 

[Athelstane]

Agree, it wasn't. But it was reflective of the thought processes of a very ambitious and jealous regime. My take is that by the early 1900's the Kaiserreich was thinking Napoleonic about Europe.

I think you can make an argument that some figures in Berlin were thinking Napoleonic.

But it's hard to say it was uniform, even within the Kaiser's inner circles. And the Catholic Center and Socialist parties were only growing in support, and they had some significantly different (domestic) priorities.

A lot depends on what the war's endgame looks like - and what role (say) Britain and even America decide to play in helping negotiate a peace.

 

[Jiraiyathegallant]

Britain siding with Russia to beat Germany or vice versa seems redundant. If Russia beats Germany odds are you still end up with a hegemonic power, just with it now being Russia instead of Germany.

 

[Athelstane]

Britain siding with Russia to beat Germany or vice versa seems redundant. If Russia beats Germany odds are you still end up with a hegemonic power, just with it now being Russia instead of Germany.

There's a risk of that, no question.

 

[Marc]

I think you can make an argument that some figures in Berlin were thinking Napoleonic.

But it's hard to say it was uniform, even within the Kaiser's inner circles. And the Catholic Center and Socialist parties were only growing in support, and they had some significantly different (domestic) priorities.

A lot depends on what the war's endgame looks like - and what role (say) Britain and even America decide to play in helping negotiate a peace.

I rather like Miranda Carter's observation (She is the author of The Three Emperors: Three Cousins, Three Empires and the Road to World War One - superb book, highly recommended.)

"Wilhelm’s touchiness, his unpredictability, his need to be acknowledged: these things struck a chord with elements in Germany, which was in a kind of adolescent spasm—quick to perceive slights, excited by the idea of flexing its muscles, filled with a sense of entitlement."

 

[NoMommsen]

I rather like Miranda Carter's observation (She is the author of The Three Emperors: Three Cousins, Three Empires and the Road to World War One - superb book, highly recommended.)

"Wilhelm’s touchiness, his unpredictability, his need to be acknowledged: these things struck a chord with elements in Germany, which was in a kind of adolescent spasm—quick to perceive slights, excited by the idea of flexing its muscles, filled with a sense of entitlement."

Hmmm, I just wonder ... what and how many sources does she cites/uses to feel enabled enough to make such a judgement over ... how many other peoples ?

As she uses it in your citation it sounds as if it might be representative majotity. Quite a task to assess a people of 60 millions plus ...

 

[NoMommsen]

The personalities of the Prussian ruling class; the Septemberprogramm; the evidence of their demands in the East during their window of success: the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, and all that Junker jazz...

Quite some 100 years plus old, rather unreflected propaganda jazz refuted innumerable times. ... if one would take the time and openmindness to learn about.

 

[tallthinkev]

If the UK still trades with Russia and France they may not be able to keep out no matter how hard they wish. Could well be the same if they trade with Germany.

 

[Marc]

Hmmm, I just wonder ... what and how many sources does she cites/uses to feel enabled enough to make such a judgement over ... how many other peoples ?

As she uses it in your citation it sounds as if it might be representative majotity. Quite a task to assess a people of 60 millions plus ...

May I suggest reading the book and then making the critique rather than assuming that the author must be wrong?

 

[Istariol]

May I suggest reading the book and then making the critique rather than assuming that the author must be wrong?

Instead of asking us to buy a book and read the information about her sources, you could just let us know.
Does she use many citations/sources? What are her Sources!
If you read the book you should know!

[Edited after corespondence with CalBear]

 

[CalBear]

Instead of asking us to buy a book and read the information about her sources, you could just let us know.
Does she use many citations/sources? What are her Sources!
If you read the book you should know!

Or do you earn on selling this book?!

Play the ball.

 

[NoMommsen]

Hmmm, I just wonder ... what and how many sources does she cites/uses to feel enabled enough to make such a judgement over ... how many other peoples ?

As she uses it in your citation it sounds as if it might be representative majotity. Quite a task to assess a people of 60 millions plus ...

May I suggest reading the book and then making the critique rather than assuming that the author must be wrong?

May I suggest reading my comment at least one more time ?

Neither made I any critique nor did I assume anybody being wrong.

Rather the opposite I'm astonished by the task the author dared to engaded at.
Nevertheless it might be allowed to ask how such a task has been approached and on what its build upon.

I simply asked questions and I asked you as the one highly recommending the named book and author. Therefore I assumed that you have thoroughly read it and might be able to give the asked for information - which I only intended to be the naming of source used by the author thereby not violating any copyrights or similar - in friendly exchange as this site and forum generally is intended to be used for.

And therefore I can only seconde @Istariol

Instead of asking us to buy a book and read the information about her sources, you could just let us know.
Does she use many citations/sources? What are her Sources!
If you read the book you should know!

 

[MrHaakwood]

The personalities of the Prussian ruling class; the Septemberprogramm; the evidence of their demands in the East during their window of success: the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, and all that Junker jazz...

I agree, this is much better:

aww...the enlightened imperialism! Can you smell it?

 

[West]

I agree, this is much better:

aww...the enlightened imperialism! Can you smell it?

what I see is that France would have turned Russia into the hedgemon of Europe with no real counterbalance except for a collection of buffer states which would have greatly resented her.

Its to Frances benefit that these plans didn't go through because man that would have wreaked the balance of power in Europe.

 

[MrHaakwood]

what I see is that France would have turned Russia into the hedgemon of Europe with no real counterbalance except for a collection of buffer states which would have greatly resented her.

Its to Frances benefit that these plans didn't go through because man that would have wreaked the balance of power in Europe.

To be honest: I dont even know if this map was offical French government policy....hmmm....where did I heard that before?

But yeah, this plan would have created another can of worms. As did pretty much any plans from every power.

 

[JackLumber]

Brest-litvosk was as harsh as it was because the Russians were negotiating in bad faith and was largely to be made into independent (at least nominally) states under German influence.
The Russians easily could of got off with losing just Poland, Lithuania and some relatively minor border adjustments elsewhere

 

[Athelstane]

what I see is that France would have turned Russia into the hedgemon of Europe with no real counterbalance except for a collection of buffer states which would have greatly resented her.

Its to Frances benefit that these plans didn't go through because man that would have wreaked the balance of power in Europe.

TFW Edward Grey realizes he's stopped one hegemony by creating another.

 

[The Gunslinger]

If the UK still trades with Russia and France they may not be able to keep out no matter how hard they wish. Could well be the same if they trade with Germany.

Or they look at the war which has literal millions of casualties and decide to sit it out. If the Germans haven't invaded Belgium and both sides are battling it out over Alsace-Lorraine France won't be in the same amount of peril as OTL and the British might not be willing to dive in over nothing.

 

[liqmadiqkhan]

At the very least Paris would've fallen which seems to indicate that the French would've been willing to explore peace talks with the Germans. It's arguably more likely for Britain to be on Germany's side than France's though. If they decide not to open military talks with France in the 1900s they'd need throw in their lot with someone to protect their colonial interests - which is more than likely going to be Germany.