What if Britain had let all the Jews of Europe into Israel in the 30s?

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Needless to say, the Arabs would be furious. The British already had to work overtime to keep the Holy Land under control during the late 1930s. Tossing more Jews into the mix would exacerbate issues, and possibly throw the whole region into a bonfire. There's barely 9 million people in Israel today; tossing even more people than that into Palestine would have necessitated the sacrifice of Jordan, which would have definitely resulted in a war; Jordan's territory is the perfect buffer to Israel, otherwise it would have a longer, much harder to patrol border with Syria and Iraq.

The basic problem is, the Holocaust was a European fuckup and the Palestinian Arabs had to foot the biggest bill, hence why they've been seething for the past 75 years or so. Throw away the Holocaust and put even more Jews to crowd out the Arabs and you wouldn't even have the excuse, you're just rubbing the Arabs' face in it.
 
Needless to say, the Arabs would be furious. The British already had to work overtime to keep the Holy Land under control during the late 1930s. Tossing more Jews into the mix would exacerbate issues, and possibly throw the whole region into a bonfire. There's barely 9 million people in Israel today; tossing even more people than that into Palestine would have necessitated the sacrifice of Jordan, which would have definitely resulted in a war; Jordan's territory is the perfect buffer to Israel, otherwise it would have a longer, much harder to patrol border with Syria and Iraq.

The basic problem is, the Holocaust was a European fuckup and the Palestinian Arabs had to foot the biggest bill, hence why they've been seething for the past 75 years or so. Throw away the Holocaust and put even more Jews to crowd out the Arabs and you wouldn't even have the excuse, you're just rubbing the Arabs' face in it.
that's what i was saying smh
 
First off moving nine million people anywhere in a short period of time (at the rate of several millions a year) creates a mess no matter who and no matter where (look at the partition of India and the movements of Hindus/Muslims across the borders). As another poster has mentioned, it wasn't until after Kristalnacht in Germany, and the Anschluß in Austria that the German and Austrian Jews were in a mood to emigrate. The Jews of Western Europe (Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France) were not attempting to leave (for anywhere), why should they none of them were expecting the Nazis to conquer their countries. In the 30s even the Jews of Italy were in no mood to leave, and they could without confiscation the significant Italian anti-semitic measures were later on at German urging. The picture in Central and Eastern Europe was more mixed, places like Czechoslovakia were not "unpleasant" for Jews, Poland and Romania were more likely to see Jews with means leave if they had a place to go, others were mixed. Of course the USSR you could not leave.

Prior to the outbreak of war, the only Jews with a significant push to emigrate would be those of Germany and Austria, and then Czechoslovakia after the full occupation. Once the war starts, the regions with the most Jews, Poland and the Western USSR, the Jews can't leave. Likewise the Jews of Western Europe after spring 1940, and most of those Jews won't flee between September, 1939 and June, 1940. After all Norway, Denmark and Holland are neutral (and sat out WWI) and French and Belgian Jews will defend their countries. With Italy at war with the Allies, those Jews are trapped - maybe they could go to the USA or Argentina, maybe. The Jews of Yugoslavia, Greece, and Bulgaria are potential immigrants. Hungary and Romania, very iffy because of close ties to Germany, although until BARBAROSSA letting Jews out to go to British territory is not totally ASB.

If you look at the numbers, even had the UK completely dropped any restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine in the post WWI period, following through on the Balfour Declaration, nowhere near nine million Jews would come in to Palestine between 1920 and 1939. Perhaps 400,000+ came between 1920 and 1945 (both legally and illegally). If ALL the Jews in Germany/Austria/Czechoslovakia went to Palestine in the 30s before WWII started in 1939 that would be around 1.1-1.3 million Jews, if ALL the Jews in Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, and Bulgaria did likewise that might make another 750,000 or so. What this means is under any sort of realistic open immigration policy, and throwing in some Jews from everywhere else except the USSR, perhaps two million Jews might have immigrated to Palestine in the 30s over and above what happened - all of the Jews in those named countries won't leave, and some of the Jews in other countries (less the USSR) will come.

Using funds/means brought by these Jews as well as foreign Jewish support, integrating 2 million Jews 1930-1940 will be difficult, a lot of strains but doable. After the war starts, and after the fall of France, an open policy will allow some Jews in - French Jews who escape to Vichy territory may find it possible to get to Palestine. The reality is by the time The Nazis bag the Jews of Western Europe, Poland, and the Western USSR it is too late. While the governments of Hungary and Romania might be happy to see the Jews leave, going to a British territory is not going to happen, and after 12/41 the USA (even if it would take them which it would not) is also out of bounds. Sadly this means perhaps four million Jews die in the Holocaust, two million are saved, but really no more.

The reality is that many Jews did not have the means to emigrate and/or the will to do so. The Holocaust was not expected,the early Nazi depredations were just more of the same old stuff brought back, and in any case that was for the Jews of Germany (and later Austria). Only if the Jews in areas that were occupied/cooperating during WWII were told about the Holocaust and believed it would the bulk of the Jewish population of Europe pick up and leave, and not all would go to Palestine if they had a choice.
 
European Jews returning to “the Promised land”. Britain says no. American “Jewish lobby” pus pressure on White House to tell UK wind your neck in or else. War plan red becomes reality if the Empire doesn’t back down. If it does back down, the Empire would quite quickly fall apart.
After much debate, and several gallons tea, His Majesty’s government comes up with a brilliant idea. It would approach Herr Hitler and advise him, the best solution to ‘his little Jewish problem’ Britain would transport, at a reasonable price, the European Jews to the Middle East.
 
In retrospect, it would have prevented the Holocaust, which is obviously a far greater evil than sectarian violence.

And I’m glad you like my name :)

It might well have reduced the number of Jews killed (and that's needless to say a good thing) but Hitler's ideology is going to involve untermenche and liquidising them. (plenty of non Jews deliberately killed by Hitler and Co.) As does the practical concerns of Germany taking over large bits of territory for living space etc.

The Jews are an excuse and figures of hate for Hitler and Nazism. It's just they are convenient ones that due to centuries of hate/violence/discrimination fit the narrative. But Nazism requires excuses and figures of hate so it will pick others if need be

Basically you want to prevent the Nazi mass killing weather we call it the Holocaust or not, you have to stop the Nazis
 
IIRC, in addition to the fear of sectarian violence, Britain also restricted access for Jewish immigrants because of pressure from the Arab oil states. This became particularly important when war was approaching and the Allied became dependent on buying oil for the war efforts.
 
The "Jewish Lobby", LOL. While this entity certainly has more influence today than in the 1930s, really. The US State Department wasting political capital "persuading" the UK to do this, the same State Department that put huge pressure on Western hemisphere countries not to allow Jews in even when things got really bad for the Jews? FDR putting US domestic programs in jeopardy by forcing the State Department to do this, and pissing off the antisemites in Congress (which included pretty much all of the Southern Democrats just for starts). Even if FDR is putting lead in his martinis and Skippy the ASB has the State Department get circumcised and keep kosher this sort of US pressure only applies after the war breaks out, especially after Dunkirk and the Fall of France. At this point (summer, 1940) most of the Jews who will die are already in German occupied territory or the territory of countries closely allied with Germany who won't be willing to see the Jews go to a British mandate where they can contribute to the British war effort. Of the Jews destined to die, only a few are in countries where they could still go to Palestine, the Jews of the USSR can't leave even if the UK opens the door.

Assume the Jews of Axis occupied or aligned territory in summer, 1940 are allowed out - this means literally several divisions of troops for the British. OK, we'll let the women/children/old men out, but males 16-50 they stay...
 
And a bunch of sectarian violence as Palestine erupts into chaos and anarchy which the British did not want.

.

It was not sectarian both Muslims and Christian Arabs were against it. But when Arab violence in Palestine did flare up but it was easily controlled. A larger Jewish population would make it easier to control.

You must bear in mind though that they all might not have wanted to go there.

Some like in France would not want to go

Plus several governments may also try to stop such an exodus too.


How many Jews were actually interested in immigrating to Palestine in the 1930s? While German (and later Austrian and Czechoslovakian) Jews would probably flee en masse, would Jews from any other country do so?


Those where Jews were in large numbers like Poland would only be too happy to see the Jews go. In Russia (which might be difficult but the Jews outside of Russia would pay which as Romania and Russia to a limited extent showed after ww2 would be acceptable to the communist) and Poland, would want to go plus the Germans after 1933 before ww2 were seriously thinking of doing something like this so Jews under German control might here be forced to go.

If a nation without lands that have Arab and Muslim populations gets the mandate instead of Britain they might be more willing to disregard the local population wishes. Britain could also maybe give it to someone else later. Britain letting in that many Jews are likely to cause some unrest in all of its Arab holdings.

Regardless, there is no reason for Britain to do this. The complicated relations across the Middle East would be ruined.

Not much Palestine was a very local issue then.


Needless to say, the Arabs would be furious. The British already had to work overtime to keep the Holy Land under control during the late 1930s. Tossing more Jews into the mix would exacerbate issues, and possibly throw the whole region into a bonfire. There's barely 9 million people in Israel today; tossing even more people than that into Palestine would have necessitated the sacrifice of Jordan, which would have definitely resulted in a war; Jordan's territory is the perfect buffer to Israel, otherwise it would have a longer, much harder to patrol border with Syria and Iraq.

The local Arab revolt was easily contained. Jordan was firmly in British hands and in both Syria and Iraq sending the local Jewish population would be prefered to keeping them. In the OTL this is exactly what these people did, stripped the Jews of all their assets, killed many and sent the rest to Israel.

The basic problem is, the Holocaust was a European fuckup and the Palestinian Arabs had to foot the biggest bill, hence why they've been seething for the past 75 years or so. Throw away the Holocaust and put even more Jews to crowd out the Arabs and you wouldn't even have the excuse, you're just rubbing the Arabs' face in it.

The decision to give the Jews a home was made long before the Holocaust, that is why the British had a mandate, not a colony. The British refusal to honor was the cause of her diplomatic defeat in the UN after WW2 and the loss of her mandate.
 
IOW, same as OTL overall, only worse for the Palestinians.

Great for averting the casualties of the Holocaust, but again, the Palestinians will be seething on how they're the ones paying the bill.
 
IIRC, in addition to the fear of sectarian violence, Britain also restricted access for Jewish immigrants because of pressure from the Arab oil states. This became particularly important when war was approaching and the Allied became dependent on buying oil for the war efforts.
Eh? Saudi Oil didn't really start supplying a lot of oil til 1945. In 1941, Ras Tanura was only refining 3000 barrels a day. After 50 million Dollars of upgrades during the War, it was doing 50,000 a day.

Most of the Wartime Oil was Persian, and they aren't Arabs and they really didn't care what was going on in Palestine.
 
Better solution would be to not have all the nations of the world except for DR turn their backs on us at the Evian Conference. Although some refugees would end up in lands that would later be occupied.
 
I know but before where? French Rhineland? Maybe create a new Jewish buffer state instead of Beglium and split the rest of it between Franche and the Netherlands?

Why not go with one of Herzels original plans (his Patagonia/ Argentinia Idea) basically buy a area from a state that is not really inhabitated and settled and has not much to gain there during the time. In Europe this might sound a bit more difficult, but only in mainland Europe, there are some Russian areas with fe or less overall population in this vast land and surely (the Lagan Area south of Astrachan is sparely populated, the same goes for the Kola Peninsula or some areas near the Ural Mountains). Yes that would look ugly on maps most likely, but so do some borders OTL.
 
How many Jews were actually interested in immigrating to Palestine in the 1930s? While German (and later Austrian and Czechoslovakian) Jews would probably flee en masse, would Jews from any other country do so?

For a couple years In the 1930s there was more Jewish emigration from Palestine then immigration into Palestine. Largely due to a combination of high levels of secretarian violence and to a much larger extent economic reasons. Apparently even by Great Depression standards the economy of the Mandate was terrible at the time.

I don't know how many German Jews wanted to emigrate to Palestine, but surprisingly few attempted to emigrate to the US until after Kristallnacht: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...quotas-to-keep-out-jews.448545/#post-17374361

A lot of that was because of German currency controls. With the Nazis obsessively devoting nearly every resource to rearmerment foreign currency was in extremely short supply. Allowing Jews to sell their property held within Germany and convert their Reichmarks into say Dollars would have been a drain on severely overstretched resources.

I believe the absolute maximum amount Jewish emigrants were allowed to leave with was the equivalent of five Reichmarks.

European Jews returning to “the Promised land”. Britain says no. American “Jewish lobby” pus pressure on White House to tell UK wind your neck in or else. War plan red becomes reality if the Empire doesn’t back down. If it does back down, the Empire would quite quickly fall apart.
After much debate, and several gallons tea, His Majesty’s government comes up with a brilliant idea. It would approach Herr Hitler and advise him, the best solution to ‘his little Jewish problem’ Britain would transport, at a reasonable price, the European Jews to the Middle East.

What in the hell?
 
Kick
Needless to say, the Arabs would be furious. The British already had to work overtime to keep the Holy Land under control during the late 1930s. Tossing more Jews into the mix would exacerbate issues, and possibly throw the whole region into a bonfire. There's barely 9 million people in Israel today; tossing even more people than that into Palestine would have necessitated the sacrifice of Jordan, which would have definitely resulted in a war; Jordan's territory is the perfect buffer to Israel, otherwise it would have a longer, much harder to patrol border with Syria and Iraq.

The basic problem is, the Holocaust was a European fuckup and the Palestinian Arabs had to foot the biggest bill, hence why they've been seething for the past 75 years or so. Throw away the Holocaust and put even more Jews to crowd out the Arabs and you wouldn't even have the excuse, you're just rubbing the Arabs' face in it.

If the Palestinian Arabs had been more willing to share their land, the British would have let more Jewish refugees in, and more Jews would have survived the Holocaust.

The Nazis deserve all the blame for doing it, but the Palestinians exacerbated it.
 
I know but before where? French Rhineland? Maybe create a new Jewish buffer state instead of Beglium and split the rest of it between Franche and the Netherlands?

Why not go with one of Herzels original plans (his Patagonia/ Argentinia Idea) basically buy a area from a state that is not really inhabitated and settled and has not much to gain there during the time. In Europe this might sound a bit more difficult, but only in mainland Europe, there are some Russian areas with fe or less overall population in this vast land and surely (the Lagan Area south of Astrachan is sparely populated, the same goes for the Kola Peninsula or some areas near the Ural Mountains). Yes that would look ugly on maps most likely, but so do some borders OTL.

Jews have said “next year in Jerusalem” for millennia. Why would they want a state in some random location?

It would be like Britain telling the Irish “you can’t build your state in Ireland, but here’s some land in Kenya”
 
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