What If Benedict Arnold never changed sides .

[Elfwine]

Saratoga was a big deal, and Arnold certainly played a role in it, but it certainly wasn't all him.

But that it's going to rub people the wrong way if he acts like he's the most important guy ever is a problem for Arnold regardless of what we debate on the first part. No one likes a thin skinned credit stealer.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

No one likes a thin skinned credit stealer.

But he didn't steal the credit. Modern historians are sure he had made several decisions of September 19th that secured the victory. For starters, if it wasn't for him, Moragn's men would have probably been overrun without the 3rd New Hampshire regiment to back them up. And all the regimental commanders also credit Arnold for that day's victory.

 

[Somedevil]

But he didn't steal the credit. Modern historians are sure he had made several decisions of September 19th that secured the victory. For starters, if it wasn't for him, Moragn's men would have probably been overrun without the 3rd New Hampshire regiment to back them up. And all the regimental commanders also credit Arnold for that day's victory.

yes Toga was the highlight of his time.. So being the New England regemens for the most part beside the Green mountain boys generally were behind him is there anyway he could move forward from Toga in a positive way to cerement his legacy

 

[Elfwine]

But he didn't steal the credit. Modern historians are sure he had made several decisions of September 19th that secured the victory. For starters, if it wasn't for him, Moragn's men would have probably been overrun without the 3rd New Hampshire regiment to back them up. And all the regimental commanders also credit Arnold for that day's victory.

But there's a difference between "Arnold played a very valuable role at Saratoga, which was a major triumph for the American Revolution." - one of multiple men who contributed greatly to the win, but not "the one man who stood between victory and defeat was Benedict Arnold" even within that campaign - and "If it wasn't for Arnold, the Revolution would have been doomed."

I think the latter rests on pretty shaky foundations, which is what I want to emphasize as far as the post above. If Arnold was content to say that he was a pretty amazing guy, as opposed to "the man who saved the Revolution from defeat", he's probably a lot better prepared to cement a positive legacy (though being thin skinned and arrogant won't make him many friends, we'd be looking at how that went for John Sullivan instead of the historical Arnold).

But if he's going to make it all "Yeah, none of these other things or other guys would have mattered if it wasn't for me." about anyone else or anything else that played a critical role - well, that's not going to go over well with his contemporaries.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

"If it wasn't for Arnold, the Revolution would have been doomed."

But it would be... simply because he was the one who came up with several tactics that were battle winning. Sure he also needed men under him to follow those orders, so the Revolution would be doomed without them also, but most historians are pretty comfortable giving Bourgoyne the edge for the battle without Arnold and those that don't have yet to give a convincing explanation as to how else they would have won. Just one of many examples is a British artillery piece briefly overran before being by the 3rd regiment (which later got recaptured) who would not have even been repositioned without Arnold. Even if he wasn't there and a replacement later recognized where they were being shelled from and that it wasn't adequately dug in, they British could have let loose 4 volleys before his replacement did the same thing. And that's one example, it's not like "Eh Arnold got lucky when he noticed that one thing." Without Arnold, the British would probably have turned the patriot flank and have the high ground. As to where it goes from there, unless the British officers all roll "1" on their perception check, the question wouldn't be who controls the battlefield at the end of the day but if the Patriots have time to pack their stuff and get out or if they'll have to abandon everything that can't be carried on their backs.

 

[Elfwine]

But it would be...

Okay, this is not to put words in your mouth, but this is my request as far as the topic:

I want to hear these historians who have concluded that Arnold is responsible for saving the Revolution here. Not that Arnold played a large role in the battle, not that Arnold was more aggressive than Gates or that a given attack was launched by his leadership and energy, but that Burgoyne would have smashed the entire Patriot army and turned Saratoga into a crushing defeat that crippled the American war effort if Arnold was not around.

(edited) "The man who saved the entire Revolution." (my phrase) is a pretty substantial claim considering everything that happened in the campaign up to Arnold's wounding OTL.

. And that's one example, it's not like "Eh Arnold got lucky when he noticed that one thing."

Only speaking for myself here in writing this, but there is a pretty vast gap between Arnold delivering a very credible performance at Saratoga that would be worthy of the acclaim of his countrymen if he hadn't turned his coat - and Arnold being (my words) "the savior of the entire Revolution whose efforts were the only thing that stood between victory and defeat."

I think the former is pretty well founded. I think the latter does a grave injustice to everyone else's efforts towards achieving this victory, including those of Horatio Gates.

Burgoyne was not in a good position at this point in the campaign, even if he holds this particular piece of bloody ground.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

The victory at Saratoga would've been much more difficult if not impossible it not for the efforts of John Stark and his defeat of a British/German column sent by Burgoyne at the Battle of Bennington, and yet I've heard nothing of "John Stark is the savior of America". The lavish praise heaped on Benedict Arnold is entirely contrarian in character, he had a major role at Saratoga but he was not the one man standing between defeat and victory.

 

[RedSword12]

The victory at Saratoga would've been much more difficult if not impossible it not for the efforts of John Stark and his defeat of a British/German column sent by Burgoyne at the Battle of Bennington, and yet I've heard nothing of "John Stark is the savior of America". The lavish praise heaped on Benedict Arnold is entirely contrarian in character, he had a major role at Saratoga but he was not the one man standing between defeat and victory.

Well, I think Arnold's earlier contribution to the campaign, namely causing St. Leger to retreat from his siege of Fort Stanwix (contributing to Burgoyne's defeat), was quite important to the American victory. Arguably, more important than his later actions over the campaign.