What If: Beatles Never Form

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Answer: Someone else does it, and they may do it worse or they may do it better. Beatles are incredibly over-rated. A much better band had a song as easily applicable to music as it is to history: "Not Great Men".
The universe will punish you in ways I cannot.

Beatlemania never happened.
Yep.

The British invasion of rock musicians to North America never happened.
Probably. The Beatles were the vanguards of the British invasion. Then again, there was a growing talent pool in Britain, so perhaps another group can rise to prominence to lead an ATL invasion.

No English rock & roll solo artist or group ever became an international sensation.
This I'm not supportive of. Although Brit rock will take a hit, I wouldn't go so far as to say something could never come out of there.

The Carnaby Street mod fashions never got beyond Carnaby Street.
My knowledge of fashion history is superficial at best, so IDK on this one.

Long hair on men never came into fashion during the second half of the 20th century.
This contention is problematic. On one hand, it's true the Beatles really did popularize long hair, and it cannot be understated that they were the ones that made it fashionable; the fact that they were countercultural but clean cut made a lot of things they did ok in the mainstream's eyes and thus broke down barriers. On the other, long hair also grew in popularity due to factors like the counterculture, a feeling of getting back to nature and naturalism in the counterculture, a feeling of distinguishing one's self from the mainstream fashion-wise (and the mainstream had been, for the earlier decades, short hair if not buzz cuts), etc. So, given the latter, maybe it could still popularize.

Bob Dylan did not go electric at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival. The last folk festival took place in 1972 due to lack of interest.
Maybe.

The dominant Top 40 music throughout the 1960's was Surf music and Soul music. Acid-Rock never evolved. Folk-Rock never evolved. Heavy Metal music never evolved. Disco music never evolved. Reggae music never evolved. Rap and Hip-Hop music never evolved. Country & Western music never evolved into twang rock.
Acid-Rock not evolving, maybe; again, depends on the counter culture. Certainly the Beatles were great pioneers in music, and the barrier they broke down helped foster Acid Rock, but that doesn't mean others can't go there.

I think Folk-Rock could still evolve given that, before the Beatles, Rock seemed to be dying -it's heroes were all gone or had left; Elvis had retired to doing films, Little Richard had gone gospel, Jerry Lee Lewis was on the outs for the scandal of marrying his cousin, Buddy Holly was dead, etc. And in the wake of this Rock was being replaced with corporate rock; bands put together by recording companies, with music written by in-studio writers, and everything pretty much put on an assembly line more or less- and in its wake Folk seemed pretty solid. So, absent the "Rock Messiah's" the Beatles and British invasion were, perhaps Folk sees fit to meld with rock into the 60's leading to Folk-Rock.

Heavy Metal has a storied development, and it depends on if you mean the early, bluesy, downer metal (ala Black Sabbath) or the hard heavy metal which evolved later which removed that Black musical element (I mean Black as in African American, not as in dark). Rock began as a sort of mongrel music which was rugged and broke barriers across race and sex, but with the Beatles and others it became more artsy and you'd see things like progressive rock and acid rock and so forth; this would also lead to the rock and roll audience "whitening" as a result; there's a good number of stories about Jimi Hendrix playing to all white crowds because African Americans didn't like his music largely. Metal was a kind of reaction against that artsy development, similar to Punk later on in that respect, which sought to get back to a mongrel sound (it didn't recoup a black audience, however, because it kept out the black musical cultural elements that had gone into rock to begin with, at least where it concerned later Metal). But Metal wasn't fully where it would be early on. Metal evolved out of a harder sound, but likewise bluesy sound, which came with bands like Led Zepplin and the like (which in themselves have been called early Heavy Metal, but I consider them as Hard Rock). With early Metal bands like Black Sabbath, the sound and lyrics and music were very bluesy -and, in Sabbath's case, down and dark- (In fact, during Sabbath's early days, their brand of music was called "Downer Rock" and not Heavy Metal; the latter term hadn't been invented yet). However, later metal bands (I think either Judas Priest of Motorhead started it) stripped that Black, blues sound out completely giving us the Metal we have today.

Disco was a reaction against both the more artsy rock of the 1960's-1970's, and the harsh sound of Punk and Metal. The latter I've already covered I think, but concerning the former: because of the Beatles influence and bands like them, music became more artsy and the kind you'd sit down to listen to, and not get up to dance to. So there was a great void of dance music. Disco addressed this.

Reggae seems like it'd be inoculated from butterflies.

Rap and Hip Hop depend on other musical genres, especially musical genres popular with the black communities, and how they evolve.

Country is an entire mess here. It could go in sooo many different directions. People like Eddie Rabbit could still come along and lead to the fusion of rock and country which created the country we have today, or Rockabilly could remain distinct from country rather than being absorbed, etc.

Elvis Presley maintained his crown as the King of Rock with a phenomenal comeback in 1965.
Bob Dylan took Presley's crown in the OTL because Presley sat on his butt collecting royalties and making b-movies.

Stadium concerts never evolved.
I don't know enough on this one

Filmore West and Filmore East never became music venues.
Same as the above.

Woodstock and Isle of Wright music festivals never took place.
Subject to butterflies

Haight-Ashberry scene in San Francisco never happened.

The psychedelic 60's never happened.

No hippies. A small minority of aging beatniks faded away during the 1960's.
The Beatles influenced the counter culture, but it's important to note the counterculture kinda outran them at a certain point before they caught up with it with "Sgt. Pepper's" (which would then go on to influence the counterculture and help broaden it). It's likewise important to note that "Sgt. Pepper's" was created out of the Psychedelic scene growing in California at the time and not the other way around (albeit the album and the bands direction thereafter would then go on to influence the Psychedelic scene likewise). So, while the Beatles influenced the counter culture, broadened it, made the psychedelia far more marketable and mainstream, etc., I think it would still be in existence. It'd suffer for lack of the Beatles, though. I think it'd be smaller, maybe isolated.
I don't wanna sound like I'm giving the Beatles too little credit because they were major beyond description in influencing and changing the world. But there were things they didn't create. A counter culture of some form is probable to happen. The New Left was already in motion by 1960, and it brought with it a generational belief in action for social progress.

The drug culture never happened. Marijuana was popular within the black community and never crossed over to the white baby boomer generation.
Perhaps not as wide spread, perhaps psychedelics remain isolated in popular use to intellectual circles and the west coast, but weed will be puffed...a lot.

The feminist movement never happened. No bra burnings. No N.O.W organization. No Roe vs. Wade. No sexual liberation.
...why?

No anti-(Vietnam) war movement. On the contrary, the baby boomer generation came of age in the late 1960's U.S.A, embracing the conservative, nationalistic, anti-Communist positions of their parents.
The Vietnam war ended with a Communist defeat in 1972 and the unification of the North and South.
The baby boomers did grow up with the anti-Commie Cold war bravado of their parents.....and they grew disillusioned with it because of Vietnam and the social revolutions being put down by "the man", leading to those protests, and that cultural backlash against the man. It wasn't "I just listened to 'Hey Jude'...f**k Nixon!", it was that the public was dealing with a stalemated war, whose investment was far outweighing what would be gained, and which was costing the lives of thousands of Americans.
You also can't paint the generation with such a broad brush. There was the mainstream belief that communism was bad, that America was good, that if we set our mind to it we could do anything, etc. But to paint everyone as a Conservative McCarthyite with jingoistic attitudes is as heinous as the people who think "Leave it to Beaver" is a historical documentary. This was the age of the Liberal Consensus where there was the ideas I just mentioned (not the Conservative, jingo ones; the Commies bad, America good, we can do anything ones), but also pragmatism and the fact that these were thinking humans. It was that pragmatism that made most people think that it was not in America's interests to nuke the Soviets if it could be avoided (where as 1950's stereotypes would kill us all in atomic hellfire), to use common sense policy at home and abroad, to avoid conflict if necessary, etc. We beefed up US involvement into Vietnam in 1964 out of a belief it'd be a relatively easy war for the South Vietnamese to win, we Americanized the war in 1965 because we thought that we'd be helping the South Vietnamese to win and that they'd win soon. But that didn't happen, and it was that pragmatism that lead the public to question the war, the reasons for the war, the Cold war bravado of 'America can do anything', and the very social order.

The statement in that quote just hurts my brain with its wrongness.

The civil rights movement in the U.S. continued as it had in our time line. Martin Luther King was assassinated in Memphis, Tennessee on 4 April 1968.
Butterflies.

Robert Kennedy was not assassinated. He ran for the U.S. presidency two times but lost to a Republican candidate both times.
Too far from the initial POD to gauge this in any way legitimately...and subject to butterflies.

The Sino-Soviet War commenced in 1972 over a border dispute and continued as a conventional war until 1982. Both regimes collapsed within five years.
What?

Cuba was invaded by the U.S in 1974 and Fidel Castro was and his Communist regime was removed from power. The Soviets blinked. They were pre-occupied with China at the time.
.....what?

No Microsoft. No Apple Computer. The first personal computer was introduced by IBM in 1994.
....?

The U.S. space program accelerated. On 4 July 1994, Michael J. Smith, USN, became the first Earth man to land on Mars.
.....

And, best of all, NO YOKO ONO

I've just scratched the surface...

Any other unlikely popular names emerge in music, Western culture in this time line? What new musical forms emerged? What has been going on in the Third World? The Muslim world?
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i wouldnt say that. iirc, the main reason manson had that whole thing set up was because of that song. no helter skelter, no manson plan
 
i wouldnt say that. iirc, the main reason manson had that whole thing set up was because of that song. no helter skelter, no manson plan
This is an issue of cause and effect. "Helter Skelter" the song didn't create Manson's ideas. Manson already had his ideas, but he thought that the White Album was the Beatles way of supporting him and his ideas, and that it was also prophetic of an impending race war in which Manson and his family would come to rule the world after.
 

The Dude

Banned
i wouldnt say that. iirc, the main reason manson had that whole thing set up was because of that song. no helter skelter, no manson plan
No.....
The reason Manson had that whole thing set up was because he was fucking crazy. He carved a goddamn swastika into his forehead for chrissakes.
 
Drugs

Well, Manson doesn't get to listen to Helter Skelter. Then what?

Helter Skelter had nothing to do with those murders. It had everything to do with drugs. Manson even said that he wasn't into the Beatles. He was into Bing Crosby. The teenagers and early-20's aged people at the ranch were probably into the Beatle thing.

Here is another WI, though: How would an alternate world go with Buddy Holly still alive, and no Beatles?
 
According to my father, if the Beatles had never formed then 3 February 1959 really would have been the day the music died.
 
I have trouble believing talented people like Paul McCartney and John Lennon would not have still become top acts with other people so many of the Beatles songs might have been with other groups.

I'm not much of a Beatles historian but just how many songs were collaborations between the members and how many were written by individuals?
 
I have trouble believing talented people like Paul McCartney and John Lennon would not have still become top acts with other people so many of the Beatles songs might have been with other groups.

I'm not much of a Beatles historian but just how many songs were collaborations between the members and how many were written by individuals?

The problem with this is that even though they started to do stuff individually as their career progressed, it was their chemistry together that produced the band as we know it.

Great bands are more than the sum of their parts.
 
...

The psychedelic 60's never happened.

...

OTL, man, OTL... :D


On topic:

I'm curious how the Stones evolve ITTL. OTL they went a little rougher, a little edgier to stand out from the then-megapopular Beatles. Perhaps TTL they stay more bluesy, less revolution-rock.

I think in general the Liverpudlian Sound still rocks Britain. Does it still make its way across the pond? Without the clean-cut Fab Four allowing repressed white teens an easy, publicly-acceptable outlet for suppressed sexual energy it's curious to see how the US scene goes. However, the Era of Mass Promotion is driven by factors more than just the Beatles. Someone else probably gets hyped to crap now that the Power of Mass Media as a promotional device has been shown to all.

Remember: the Beatles OTL were completely reworked by the execs. They found them long-haired, shabbily dressed, and rocking US blues tunes in rough German bars and made them clean-cut, sweet Boys Next Door with a happy, popy sound. Pete Best was kicked to the curb and in came Ringo. Theoretically the Stones or The Who or The Band that Never Made It OTL could fill the void, particularly assuming the record execs simply find another band of four cute boys to build up. Now, perhaps, The Band That Totally Made It ATL (featuring drummer Ringo Starr) mania sweeps the US instead.

The big change IMO is who this ATL Megaband is, and where their talent lies. The Beatles, by luck, happened to be very talented and capable of original ideas, musically speaking. When they discovered drugs and psychadelia, everything changed in music Yet Again. Rubber Soul is the pivot point here.

ATL Megaband may be empty shells, so, as someone else pointed out, we may see Pop go to pure empty suckitude faster. Or stranger: this new loud Rock & Roll sound out of Britain is "revealed" to be as empty and meaningless as its foes claimed and Rock & Roll proves as short-lived as Calypso in the 60s and Neo-Swing in the 90s and "dies" by 1970 to be replaced by whatever new sound emerges...or older sound reemerges. Folk-Americana? Neo-Rockabilly? Jazz? Bossa-Nova? Gulf & Western? :D
 
I have trouble believing talented people like Paul McCartney and John Lennon would not have still become top acts with other people so many of the Beatles songs might have been with other groups.

I'm not much of a Beatles historian but just how many songs were collaborations between the members and how many were written by individuals?

Off the top of my head, Lennon and McCartney had an agreement to share credit for all their work, even if one did most or all of the writing. Harrison contributed about two songs per album. Starr? Well, there's Octopus' Garden.

As to whether they would get into music with other people, a lot of the music industry happens by chance, and if you don't make it before you decide "I need to support myself with a real job," the world may never discover your talent.
 
According to my father, if the Beatles had never formed then 3 February 1959 really would have been the day the music died.
It would probably have been, at least where it concerned Rock and Roll. As I said before, Rock was dying if not dead; Elvis wasn't doing music and just doing movies (Colonel Parker's influence there; he knew rock was out due to every other rock artist leaving the genre or unable to operate and the smart move for Elvis was movies to stay afloat), Buddy Holley et. al were dead, Jerry Lee Lewis was a pariah for marrying his cousin, Little Richard had gone gospel, etc. The old rock indies were being replaced with corporate made bands with in-studio song writers, and it would take the Beatles and the British Invasion to save rock.

I have trouble believing talented people like Paul McCartney and John Lennon would not have still become top acts with other people so many of the Beatles songs might have been with other groups.
Success and talent don't always come together. The Beatles grew up in Liverpool with a lot of other talented people who ended up going nowhere. It took a lot of PODs to bring the Beatles to success. Break one, and they're a highly popular local Liverpool band or just John Lennon's fantasy that ended up going nowhere.

The issue here is is the POD the Beatles never forming period, or never becoming popular?

I'm curious how the Stones evolve ITTL. OTL they went a little rougher, a little edgier to stand out from the then-megapopular Beatles. Perhaps TTL they stay more bluesy, less revolution-rock.

I believe Decca signed the Rolling Stones in order to make up for the stupidity when they didn't sign the Beatles when they had the chance.

I think in general the Liverpudlian Sound still rocks Britain. Does it still make its way across the pond? Without the clean-cut Fab Four allowing repressed white teens an easy, publicly-acceptable outlet for suppressed sexual energy it's curious to see how the US scene goes. However, the Era of Mass Promotion is driven by factors more than just the Beatles. Someone else probably gets hyped to crap now that the Power of Mass Media as a promotional device has been shown to all.
The Beatles were very good vanguards for the Liverpool sound and the British invasion. The other most popular group was "Rory Storm and the Hurricanes", which I doubt could do it; Rory Storm couldn't sing too well and had limited range.

Remember: the Beatles OTL were completely reworked by the execs. They found them long-haired, shabbily dressed, and rocking US blues tunes in rough German bars and made them clean-cut, sweet Boys Next Door with a happy, popy sound. Pete Best was kicked to the curb and in came Ringo. Theoretically the Stones or The Who or The Band that Never Made It OTL could fill the void, particularly assuming the record execs simply find another band of four cute boys to build up. Now, perhaps, The Band That Totally Made It ATL (featuring drummer Ringo Starr) mania sweeps the US instead.
I disagree here on the sound. The Beatles wrote and preformed their own material. The Beat/Merseyside scene and their rock style was their own doing. The studio sometimes pushed them to uptempo a song or something like that, but otherwise they were pretty much doing what they wanted. Brian Epstein cleaned them up, put them in Teddyboy outfits, and made them bow after a performance, but the sound and music was always their own doing.

The Beatles really kicked the door down for the Brits getting highly popular in the US and abroad and managed to keep a foothold, because they were good at what they did and did it early. I'm not sure another band could do that. Maybe Gerry and the Pacemakers lob some salvos across the pond, but that could be about it.

The big change IMO is who this ATL Megaband is, and where their talent lies. The Beatles, by luck, happened to be very talented and capable of original ideas, musically speaking. When they discovered drugs and psychadelia, everything changed in music Yet Again. Rubber Soul is the pivot point here.
They discovered weed very early on. It was the LSD that changed things.:D

ATL Megaband may be empty shells, so, as someone else pointed out, we may see Pop go to pure empty suckitude faster. Or stranger: this new loud Rock & Roll sound out of Britain is "revealed" to be as empty and meaningless as its foes claimed and Rock & Roll proves as short-lived as Calypso in the 60s and Neo-Swing in the 90s and "dies" by 1970 to be replaced by whatever new sound emerges...or older sound reemerges. Folk-Americana? Neo-Rockabilly? Jazz? Bossa-Nova? Gulf & Western? :D
Folk will probably survive. It'd be like the Indie Rock of the era, fighting off a corporate sound.
 
Indian music isn't as popular outside of India. Granted, it isn't exactly a top-seller now, but without Harrison, I suspect it would be a smaller niche.
 
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