So this is my first Thread. If it's stupid I am sorry, but I've heard this before and am genuinely interested!
No, because once you have a semi automatic, it's a really small step to full auto. Or similarly, once you had a man portable machine gun or SMG, the concept of an assualt rifle is the next logical stepHow do you propose this happens? No world wars? This means everyone sticks with semi-automatic battle rifles?
Not necessarily, but likely depending on doctrine. Still you could get something like the CETME rifle which is meant to be a light automatic rifle rather than an assault rifle using special light weight bullets to achieve it's spec.No, because once you have a semi automatic, it's a really small step to full auto. Or similarly, once you had a man portable machine gun or SMG, the concept of an assualt rifle is the next logical step
Ok, I'll buy that. So we see a squad made up of riflemen with semi-auto battle rifles and one man with a light machine gun like the CETME or BAR. But then we run into logistics issues. Do the riflemen fire full power rifle rounds and the machinegunners lightweight ammo? Or do both use full power ammo or both use lightweight ammo?Not necessarily, but likely depending on doctrine. Still you could get something like the CETME rifle which is meant to be a light automatic rifle rather than an assault rifle using special light weight bullets to achieve it's spec.
The CETME was for every rifleman and supposed to replace all automatic rifles and LMGs (IOTL the Germans learned through experience that you simply cannot replace an actual LMG at the platoon level with just assault rifles; the Marines did ok in WW2 with 3 BARs per squad). The idea was to have a 1000m ranged battle/auto rifle that weighed as much as bolt action rifle, but could fire bursts like an LMG. It actually met it's design spec but for political reasons around NATO it wasn't adopted and the rifle was adapted to take the standard NATO 7.62, ending up with the same issues of the M14/FAL in automatic fire mode. I think the plan was to delete the LMG entirely and effectively have an entire platoon with the equivalent of BARs, while the MMG/HMGs used regular full powered rounds at the company and battalion level.Ok, I'll buy that. So we see a squad made up of riflemen with semi-auto battle rifles and one man with a light machine gun like the CETME or BAR. But then we run into logistics issues. Do the riflemen fire full power rifle rounds and the machinegunners lightweight ammo? Or do both use full power ammo or both use lightweight ammo?
You'd certainly have to avoid WW2. The thing is the automatic rifle/automatic battle rifle rather than an intermediate cartridge assault rifle could evolve without WW2 experience.I honestly don’t think you can butterfly away the assault rifle once the machine gun is invented. There will always be someone who wants to put the RoF of a MG into a one-man, light weapon.
Delay, yes. Remove entirely, no.
Do the riflemen fire full power rifle rounds and the machinegunners lightweight ammo? Or do both use full power ammo or both use lightweight ammo?
I think he was referencing the CETME rifle ammo I mentioned.How is that any different than OTL up until very recently with SAW/MINIME where MGs had different ammo to rifles?
I wasI think he was referencing the CETME rifle ammo I mentioned.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...al-intermediate-calibers-022-7-92x40mm-cetme/
It was designed to have the recoil impulse of a StG 44 and the range of the NATO 7.62
I could see a non-Nazi Germany eventually ending up there with no WW2 given interwar views/developments on automatic rifles/carbines.
If they get lightweight automatic rifles, sure. Just like the evolution with assault rifles IOTL. GPMGs in LMG pattern get concentrated in a weapons squad within the platoon. If they don't though move to an automatic rifle squad pattern, they could end up with what Hitler originally envisioned: LMG within a semi-automatic, full powered rifle squad with scopes, but for a rifle grenadier.With Great War experience but not the same or no Second World War experiences I too think the German Army moves to a light automatic rifle and LMG duo, the LMG likely moved into a dedicated "heavy" squad and the rifle squad using the rifles paired with rifle grenades akin to US Army M14/M79 usage, flat fire and lobbed bang.
Yeah there is the issue without WW2, but still WW1, the Germans did basically develop a proto-assault rifle with the Vollmer M35. They called it an automatic carbine, but was effectively an AK-47 in terms of the power of the cartridge (it was 7.62x40 IIRC) and general operating principle (minus the reliability thanks to the gas trap system, which would eventually have to go just like with the Garand). Something like the Panzerfaust would evolve eventually, as the US developed the Bazooka without any WW2 combat experience.I am rationalizing getting the Panzerfaust cum RPG to give me a proto-modern infantry platoon by or before the 1950s/60s. The CETME is to me what would have evolved from a better semi-automatic effort and no pressing call for the Stg44, a more leisurely and rifleman oriented development following after the experimental Vollmer M35.
If they get lightweight automatic rifles, sure. Just like the evolution with assault rifles IOTL. GPMGs in LMG pattern get concentrated in a weapons squad within the platoon. If they don't though move to an automatic rifle squad pattern, they could end up with what Hitler originally envisioned: LMG within a semi-automatic, full powered rifle squad with scopes, but for a rifle grenadier.
Yeah there is the issue without WW2, but still WW1, the Germans did basically develop a proto-assault rifle with the Vollmer M35. They called it an automatic carbine, but was effectively an AK-47 in terms of the power of the cartridge (it was 7.62x40 IIRC) and general operating principle (minus the reliability thanks to the gas trap system, which would eventually have to go just like with the Garand). Something like the Panzerfaust would evolve eventually, as the US developed the Bazooka without any WW2 combat experience.
So this is my first Thread. If it's stupid I am sorry, but I've heard this before and am genuinely interested!
Armies carry on using bolt-action rifles, heavy machine guns and sub-machine guns, as they did IOTL into the 1950s?