What if America fought on Germany's side during WWI?

My point is that in an environment where the US does face a building threat from the Entente there is no guarantee that the US will react well and in time.
I got that part, but my point was that, in OTL, what danger did the Central Powers pose to the USA? Sure, they could sink some merchant ships, but where was the "Clear and present danger to the national Security of the United States", posed by the CP, that would have had to fight their way past the Entente navies too do so? As far as I can tell, there was no big threat to the USA in OTL, and so doing what they did historically, while not exactly making sense, did kind of make a bit of sense if you don't really think your in any danger of invasion.

OTOH, in this situation here, there is the possibility in invasion, and even though the likelihood of such an invasion coming to pass is not high, at the start, the knowledge is there that the current US military forces cannot prevail if such should come to pass, so making plans to get your defenses in order, just in case, is imperative. Other things, like the setting up of potential US/German cooperation might not go quickly and smoothly, for many good and true reasons, but then again, it is a logical step to take, and one that could give the Entente a great deal of trouble.

Well for one thing, is this even possible. Japan was on Germany's side after Pearl Harbor. I don't think The United States would've been on the Axis' side in OTL circumstances tbh.
Wrong war.

This thread is about WWI, not WWII.
 
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As for the resulting treaty and what the world looks like afterwards in a Spring 1918 defeat for the West with Brest-Litovsk intact...

ATL US as Central Power - Very Large.png


Japan gets strong economic influence of eastern Siberia, Manchuria, and I wasn't sure if Paris might sell it to Tokyo just to spite Berlin but it would not be unheard of. Portugal was at war with Germany and the UK indirectly agree to split Mozambique per the previous 1914 agreement (UK seizes those areas south of the Zambezi after the treaty). US takes Canada and makes territories out of anything else substantial in the Western Hemisphere while Germany takes the balance of Lorraine, Belgium east of the Meuse, and Luxembourg with various puppets in the East.

Please note this is about as much as this ATL CP is likely to get under *any* circumstances short of dictating a peace in London even if negotiations are done in occupied Paris.
 
It seems to me that this would require the US and the UK to have much worse relations from American independence onward.
 
I got that part, but my point was that, in OTL, what danger did the Central Powers pose to the USA? Sure, they could sink some merchant ships, but where was the "Clear and present danger to the national Security of the United States", posed by the CP, that would have had to fight their way past the Entente navies too do so? As far as I can tell, there was no big threat to the USA in OTL, and so doing what they did historically, while not exactly making sense, did kind of make a bit of sense if you don't really think your in any danger of invasion.

OTOH, in this situation here, there is the possibility in invasion, and even though the likelihood of such an invasion coming to pass is not high, at the start, the knowledge is there that the current US military forces cannot prevail if such should come to pass, so making plans to get your defenses in order, just in case, is imperative. Other things, like the setting up of potential US/German cooperation might not go quickly and smoothly, for many good and true reasons, but then again, it is a logical step to take, and one that could give the Entente a great deal of trouble.

IOTL the L. M. Garrison plan was to have a a Regular Army of 140,000 (up from 100,000) and a trained volunteer reserve of the RA of 400,000 (up from 16 in 1914, that's not a typo: 16) while the NG would remain as is at about 112,000. This caused huge debate and rancour in the US and was ultimately shot down and Garrison forced to resign.

Do you think that if there was clear and present danger of direct action against the US that the Garrison plan would be adopted?
 
IOTL the L. M. Garrison plan was to have a a Regular Army of 140,000 (up from 100,000) and a trained volunteer reserve of the RA of 400,000 (up from 16 in 1914, that's not a typo: 16) while the NG would remain as is at about 112,000. This caused huge debate and rancour in the US and was ultimately shot down and Garrison forced to resign.

Do you think that if there was clear and present danger of direct action against the US that the Garrison plan would be adopted?
I would hope not, see below...

Ok, so after my nap and dinner, I took the time to look this fellow and his plan up, but the numbers I'm seeing are a bit off from the above...

Looks like the Ra was too go from 100k to 140k, check, but questions later.
Reserves were to be 400k to 500k, check, but comments later.
National guard to be 130k, a little different, but ok.

First, I have to ask what effectiveness would be achieved and maintained by two months of active duty a year, for three years, followed by three years apparently without any refresher training at all? When I served, the NG would have one drill a month, and two weeks a year. This could be somewhat effective, if and only if the training standards were tough and exacting, and the level of commitment to keeping military skills was top of the line. As it was, this was not the case, and things like basic rifle marksmanship were really nowhere to be seen, so the modern NG would be a disorganized mob with hardly a clue (as opposed to a disorganized mob, with NO clue, for an all civilian force), that being said, with prior military experience, I would allow that getting things sorted out would likely be a faster thing with the NG than an all civilian force, and this would make a difference, but again, just how much of a difference I cannot say.

You like force structures, and looking at historical force levels, and then trying to extrapolate probabilities from there? I seem to recall you mentioning something along these lines back up thread somewhere, if I understood correctly?

I have never heard of this gentleman, nor his plan, before you brought him up. I mention this, as a way of demonstrating my own lack of research/interest in this area of US history up till now, so if you are expecting a good and lively debate along the lines that you seem to be conducting, I'm afraid that I will be a disappointment to you in that regard.

Now, looking at the existing force structure troop level vs. overseas commitments, can you tell me what exactly his plan would have done, with regards to the RA only, in term of troops left within the USA, that could be deployed immediately (within 3 months), and what could be used for serving as a training cadre?

As the site I went to has some discrepancies in numbers with those you posted, I wonder what else is different, so can you shed some light on Garrison's idea for the Reserves, in term of enlistment period, initial training, refresher training, and likely level of military skills achieved and maintained. It doesn't need to be a professorial level thing, just your gut level, honest opinion of what the men of such an organization would be worth, compared to, say, an all civilian force of armed volunteers?

As far as threat levels go, good US-UK relations go a long way to the Americans feeling that they don't need a strong standing army, as any other potential (European) threats would presumably have to go through the British to get to us, and the Japanese have both a large standing army and powerful navy, but would have no neighboring nations to stage their forces out of, and the logistics of a cross pacific campaign would prohibit any direct invasion of CONUS, and the belief would likely have been that if an attack were made elsewhere, the US would respond and drive them back.

Now, in this ATL discussion, we see the USA having it's relations getting worse and worse with the UK (and therefore her allies) and this UK is at war! It's one thing to has worsening relations with a UK that is at peace, and quite another with one that is at war, to say nothing about a WORLD WAR.

All that being said, in OTL the risk of a ground invasion of the US homeland was all but non-existent, and in the ATL, it is a distinct and deadly potential, at least it could be made to appear to be so, in the public's eye, and then...
 
I love a good nap, its one of lifes simple pleasures.

It's difficult to find precise details about plans that failed to get up so I don't get too hung up on whether it was 400 or 500 thousand reserves. The big conceptual difference between the 1914 and Defense Act and the Garrison plan is that both the former were established on peacetime establishment and needed volunteers upon the DoW whereas Garrisons 400-500,000 reservists would immediately bring units up to full wartime strength. I believe that the reservists would do 6 months initial training then ongoing drill, at the time the NG had to do 24 nights drill and a 5 day camp annually.

In terms of military effectiveness this would be a good option for the US , far better than the arrangements extant in 1914. However despite it being a compromise the conceptual shift was too much, anti war groups said it went too far, pro war groups said it didn't go far enough while various groups objected to the sidelining of the NG. In the end the US agreed to expand the extant system, which left the weakness of needing every infantry coy in the RA and NG needing to induct 85 new recruits upon a DoW.

The reason I bring this up is because it shows the sorts of issues that the US would have to wrestle with politically if a direct threat arose. Garrisons plan was a compromise and led to another compromise after a year of arguments. My guess is that even if his plan or some other concept was adopted it would take a lot of time to bed down the political process and then years to enact.
 
As for the resulting treaty and what the world looks like afterwards in a Spring 1918 defeat for the West with Brest-Litovsk intact...

View attachment 524054

Japan gets strong economic influence of eastern Siberia, Manchuria, and I wasn't sure if Paris might sell it to Tokyo just to spite Berlin but it would not be unheard of. Portugal was at war with Germany and the UK indirectly agree to split Mozambique per the previous 1914 agreement (UK seizes those areas south of the Zambezi after the treaty). US takes Canada and makes territories out of anything else substantial in the Western Hemisphere while Germany takes the balance of Lorraine, Belgium east of the Meuse, and Luxembourg with various puppets in the East.

Please note this is about as much as this ATL CP is likely to get under *any* circumstances short of dictating a peace in London even if negotiations are done in occupied Paris.
but why would get japan so much, remember they are part of the the entente, the losing side in this scenario.
if anything, the us might want japan to be severe restricted.

this brings me to another point, everybody concentrates on britain as reason for the us to side with the centrals, but how about that other member of the entente, japan, could there be japan related reasons for the us to make that decision?
 
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this brings me to another point, everybody concentrates on britain as reason for the us to go to war with the centrals, but how about that other member of the entente, japan, could there be japan related reasons for the us to make that decision?

Or Russia or France, or even a combination?
 
Or Russia or France, or even a combination?
exactly, especially if they feel their pacific position is threatened.
Imagine japan bringing up the racial equality thing early and the entente feels the need to accept because they need the support of japan.
considering how racist the us was at that time, it could sour things quite a bit.

especially russia in that period did have a talent for making spectacular mistakes (like attacking british ships in the northsea, while the russian ships were in transit to the far east during the 1904 war)
 
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But not enough to get the U.S. into the war.
things like that go little step by little step, first the us becomes more and more neutral, the entente countries seeing american support slip become less restrained in their responses to america ( things like us cargoships etc), and a small mistake with big consequences can happen
 
things like that go little step by little step, first the us becomes more and more neutral, the entente countries seeing american support slip become less restrained in their responses to america ( things like us cargoships etc), and a small mistake with big consequences can happen
Still not likely. The ruling class was anglophile.
 
Still not likely. The ruling class was anglophile.
we're trying to discuss how it could happen, so instead of this sort of empty reply, constructive posts are more helpful.
yes they were anglophile, but most of all they were american(in other words, american interest were the most important thing)
likely many were also japanophobe, considering the racial stance of the era.
the point is the entente is not just britain, but also france, italy, russia, japan and china etc
 
we're trying to discuss how it could happen, so instead of this sort of empty reply, constructive posts are more helpful.
yes they were anglophile, but most of all they were american(in other words, american interest were the most important thing)
likely many were also japanophobe, considering the racial stance of the era.
the point is the entente is not just britain, but also france, italy, russia, japan and china etc
Entering the war could not have been less in the strategic interest of the United States. On either side, but especially on the side of the Central Powers.
 
but why would get japan so much, remember they are part of the the entente, the losing side in this scenario.
if anything, the us might want japan to be severe restricted.

this brings me to another point, everybody concentrates on britain as reason for the us to side with the centrals, but how about that other member of the entente, japan, could there be japan related reasons for the us to make that decision?

Japan's lighter color represents its prospective economic condominiums more than outright colonies though French Indochina might get sold just to keep it away from Germany. Russia still likely has some sort of civil trouble and certainly Japan had eyes on the area already, besides the USSR in OTL offered something like this for easternmost Siberia but it got turned down, here it's Japan investing in that plus eastern Siberia a la Sakhalin (which it manages to absorb eventually).

Japan also still fields a largely intact army and navy, unlike many of the rest of the Allies in this ATL.
 
@M79 What basemap did you use?

One I pulled from an earlier timeline I was working on where the Germans and UK carved up Portugal's depenencies following the death of Franz Ferdinand in late 1913 England due to a hunting accident. World War I still happens but years later with somewhat different weaponry and lasts a lot longer. It finally ends around 1965 with a combination of worldwide economic stagnation, global atomic fallout, and a version of the flu that isn't the flu but something much worse (that really exists in OTL and may have been the real culprit behind the Spanish Flu) hitting for a third and most serious round. Someone posted a thread asking to make the worst 1970s possible, this was going to be my run on it.

PoD: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-25008184
 
As for the resulting treaty and what the world looks like afterwards in a Spring 1918 defeat for the West with Brest-Litovsk intact...

View attachment 524054

Japan gets strong economic influence of eastern Siberia, Manchuria, and I wasn't sure if Paris might sell it to Tokyo just to spite Berlin but it would not be unheard of. Portugal was at war with Germany and the UK indirectly agree to split Mozambique per the previous 1914 agreement (UK seizes those areas south of the Zambezi after the treaty). US takes Canada and makes territories out of anything else substantial in the Western Hemisphere while Germany takes the balance of Lorraine, Belgium east of the Meuse, and Luxembourg with various puppets in the East.

Please note this is about as much as this ATL CP is likely to get under *any* circumstances short of dictating a peace in London even if negotiations are done in occupied Paris.
What's that big brown blob in west Africa?
 
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