That 3" gun dated back to 1918. That loading was for 2400fps. The 3" gun was modified for a tank gun for the T1/M6 Heavy Tank of 1941
What if: Afrika Corps gets T-34
- Thread starter Hammerbolt
- Start date
That 3" gun dated back to 1918. That loading was for 2400fps. The 3" gun was modified for a tank gun for the T1/M6 Heavy Tank of 1941
Hammerbolt
Donor
In 1941, the T-34 was, overall, superior to much of the opposition, even with it's flaws. Not for nothing the germans panicked, with calls for building one. And many of it's original problems were due to the fact that it was really a brand new tank (and I noticed that no one mentioned the huge, heavy single hatch that crushed fingers...). And then the USSR got hit by the war, forcing production into a rushed overdrive. Add poorly trained crews and bad tactics...
Hammerbolt
Donor
Russia -> Italy shouldn't be a big problem; at the time, allied air raids had little to no effect on the rail/road traffic; the big problem was crossing the Med, but that applied to all Axis supplies. If you can carry a PzIII or IV, you can carry a T-34.
Oh indeed, i'm more worried about getting them out of Russia, the axis supply chain was already having issues and unless they captured the odd one or two, put them in a place with "FOR AFRICA!" marked on it to build up enough T-34's to ship there then you're waiting until late 42 early 43 at which point the German supply chain has all but broken down along with the Battle for Moscow to have enough to send there.
Hammerbolt
Donor
Nonono, that is far too late. Notice that I said "November 1941"; by late 42, the Med was nearly impassable for the Axis.
Hammerbolt
Donor
I admit I could not find any figures on how many there were. Which is why I tried to delay to November, and used just 40-50.
Cryhavoc101
Donor
Regarding numbers of 'Spare' T34s - like I said earlier unless there was a hard push for recovered tanks to be sent to a central point the mass majority are and were (as I understand it) pushed into service with those units that captured them.
Captured T34s were used outside of the Eastern front - for example when I looked into possible armoured cars a couple of years back I found an account of AEC MK2s with 6 pounder guns attached to Tito's forces having knocked out several T34s belonging to 'SS' units in Yugoslavia late in the war.
There was also the example of a unit created using spare tanks including T34s for Op Heracles in 1942 but as I understand it the unit was never used.
However I think having a unit of them in Nov 1941 in Cyrenaica is both impractical and in my opinion not necessary at the time.
Captured T34s were used outside of the Eastern front - for example when I looked into possible armoured cars a couple of years back I found an account of AEC MK2s with 6 pounder guns attached to Tito's forces having knocked out several T34s belonging to 'SS' units in Yugoslavia late in the war.
There was also the example of a unit created using spare tanks including T34s for Op Heracles in 1942 but as I understand it the unit was never used.
However I think having a unit of them in Nov 1941 in Cyrenaica is both impractical and in my opinion not necessary at the time.
The 3in in the M6 heavy tank contributed to the Allied war effort as much as the KV-3 (107mm cannon, with roots before ww2) and T-34 prototypes with high power 76.2mm cannon - about 0%. If we want to chase muzzle velocity figures, looks like everybody forgot the T-34-57, the best anti-armor tank of 1941, and that onne actually saw service.
The production US medium tanks of 1941/early 1942, the M3 series, were outfitted with a gun that was no better than F-34. Not in turret, however. Riveted armor. Excellent target for a half decent AT gun crew.
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WI Germans loaded captured tanks onto ships, then sailed them the length of the Black Sea and halfway across the Meditterranean?
What would Turks say about German ships sailing through the Dardenalles (sp?)?
The M5 3" gun in 1941 was the best US anti-armor weapon, but too heavy, near the same of the later US 90mm.
A new gun with nearly the same performance was the 76mm, but had a useful HE shell, unlike the 57mm
And the 3" did see combat in the M10 TD, that were used as indirect artillery more often than their TD origin. McNair insured TDs had indirect sighting gear
Not just the Turks, the RN might like to ask questions about if the RM is willing to stand and escort them?
Big advantage of using the captured T34's (and I would add the KV-1's) in NA instead of Russia is that there would be far less friendly fire incidents.
As the soviet tanks would vastly differ in silhouette compared to the british tanks.
According to my memory they had captured 45 of them combined by end of '41. Allowing for 3 companies, or 1 panzer battalion in the 15th panzer division.
Regarding spare parts while not ever lasting, I think it is safe to assume more then enough parts could have been scrounged from damaged and abandoned T-34's in Russia to keep the tanks going.
For logistics for getting the the T-34's from Russia to NA, remember the trains going west where mostly empty. Leaving lots of space for captured scap and tanks to get to Italy. From there it would have been equally as difficult to move T-34's or PIII to Libya.
In regards to the air filter, all these tanks would have had to been overhauled for service in the Panzer units anyway. Adding things like radio's and proper optics. Making the tank ready for dessert conditions would have been done at the same time.
Also this was the composition of the 8th panzer regiment. The main armoured part of the early Panzer Afrika Korps.
Type
Number
Pzkpfw. I 14
Pzkpfw. II 38
Pzkpfw. III (37mm) 76
Pzkpfw. IV (75mm Kz.) 21
PzBefw. 9
So trading the PzI and PzII for T-34's would be a major upgrade.
As the soviet tanks would vastly differ in silhouette compared to the british tanks.
According to my memory they had captured 45 of them combined by end of '41. Allowing for 3 companies, or 1 panzer battalion in the 15th panzer division.
Regarding spare parts while not ever lasting, I think it is safe to assume more then enough parts could have been scrounged from damaged and abandoned T-34's in Russia to keep the tanks going.
For logistics for getting the the T-34's from Russia to NA, remember the trains going west where mostly empty. Leaving lots of space for captured scap and tanks to get to Italy. From there it would have been equally as difficult to move T-34's or PIII to Libya.
In regards to the air filter, all these tanks would have had to been overhauled for service in the Panzer units anyway. Adding things like radio's and proper optics. Making the tank ready for dessert conditions would have been done at the same time.
Also this was the composition of the 8th panzer regiment. The main armoured part of the early Panzer Afrika Korps.
Type
Number
Pzkpfw. I 14
Pzkpfw. II 38
Pzkpfw. III (37mm) 76
Pzkpfw. IV (75mm Kz.) 21
PzBefw. 9
So trading the PzI and PzII for T-34's would be a major upgrade.
Hammerbolt
Donor
Big advantage of using the captured T34's (and I would add the KV-1's) in NA instead of Russia is that there would be far less friendly fire incidents.
As the soviet tanks would vastly differ in silhouette compared to the british tanks.
According to my memory they had captured 45 of them combined by end of '41. Allowing for 3 companies, or 1 panzer battalion in the 15th panzer division.
Regarding spare parts while not ever lasting, I think it is safe to assume more then enough parts could have been scrounged from damaged and abandoned T-34's in Russia to keep the tanks going.
For logistics for getting the the T-34's from Russia to NA, remember the trains going west where mostly empty. Leaving lots of space for captured scap and tanks to get to Italy. From there it would have been equally as difficult to move T-34's or PIII to Libya.
In regards to the air filter, all these tanks would have had to been overhauled for service in the Panzer units anyway. Adding things like radio's and proper optics. Making the tank ready for dessert conditions would have been done at the same time.
Also this was the composition of the 8th panzer regiment. The main armoured part of the early Panzer Afrika Korps.
Type
Number
Pzkpfw. I 14
Pzkpfw. II 38
Pzkpfw. III (37mm) 76
Pzkpfw. IV (75mm Kz.) 21
PzBefw. 9
So trading the PzI and PzII for T-34's would be a major upgrade.
I'd completely forgottten about "friendly fire"... /shame