What if????? A study in human migration.

The POD would be 25,000 BCE - And by the way - the map of migration? Just reverse the arrows and you'll understand...


Sentai1074,

I don't understand. In fact I'm even more confused.

You seem to be suggesting two different scenarios, but I can't determine which one you're actually taking about. I'm going to write the two scenarios down. Please tell us which of the two you're actually writing about, okay?

A: What if current theories about human evolving in Africa are wrong?

B: What if humans evolved in the Americas?

Once we know what you're talking about, we'll be better able to talk with you about them.

I'll give you a preview though. If you're talking about A you'll need to move the thread to the ASB forum.


Bill
 
I call people crazy and I get told off Finn.

And he did say Homo Sapiens so technically he’s in the right spot.

A) Okay, maybe not crazy, but ignorant of basic facts about the origins of humans. To the point that he appears crazy.

B) Still, there is the POD necessary to get the apes in the Americas, and to find the right climate, and there is no chance of humans evolving like that. This should go in ASB.
 

Cook

Banned
A) Okay, maybe not crazy, but ignorant of basic facts about the origins of humans. To the point that he appears crazy.

B) Still, there is the POD necessary to get the apes in the Americas, and to find the right climate, and there is no chance of humans evolving like that. This should go in ASB.

Agreed, I was just trying to be nice about it for a change. You should see my comments yesterday regarding someone using the Old Testament as an archaeological reference.

And I’m still waiting for that map people!
:mad:
 

Cook

Banned
Thanks Bill,

Sorry about that, I seem to have missed your post in the reading. Best remind everybody that the arrows are indicative only and not the actual path travelled. We have some people on here who are too damned literal.

I read “The Ancestor’s Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life” by Richard Dawkins last year whilst out bush up north. It’s interesting reading about evolution while driving past some of the oldest rock formations in the world. I heartily recommend the read.
 
What if Humans (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) originated in the Americas?



1. Camels, Elephants, Horses, Lions, Tigers, and Bears originated in the Americas.​
Horses did.They died out there from overhunting after spreading to Eurafrasia, where they didn't.
 
Horses did.They died out there from overhunting after spreading to Eurafrasia, where they didn't.

Umm...guys, it's pretty obvious that he's actually pushing a theory of his own not an ATL, or if he's not he's doing a very good impression of a crazy theorist. It's the standard farrago of cherrypicked half truths and outright inaccuracies, the same old mish mash of history (Toltecs and Egyptians) and so forth.
 
Umm...guys, it's pretty obvious that he's actually pushing a theory of his own not an ATL, or if he's not he's doing a very good impression of a crazy theorist. It's the standard farrago of cherrypicked half truths and outright inaccuracies, the same old mish mash of history (Toltecs and Egyptians) and so forth.

Anyone else remember that insane guy about a month ago who claimed some stuff about an ancient Russian empire and how history was all a lie told by the West?

Why isn't Russia considered the West? It is no less a descendant of Rome than Britain.
 
While I understand these facts, (and there are monkeys in America in the Jungles) the point is, there is evidence of homo sapiens sapiens living the hunter-gatherer lifestyle in America (at least until the 1850's).

MY saying is that indeed, the Eskimo, Inuit and others stayed in America, but some of them migrated across the Bering Land Bridge and went west towards the North Sea and some elected to stay in China and settled that part of Asia. Others of the group went into India, and later into Persia. Then, a group broke off and became the Indo-Aryans. They went into the Russian steppes and became the Aryans that some Europeans love to obsess over.

This group may have went west into Romania and became the Romani (Gypsies), south into Turkey and settled in Catal Hyuk. They may have then ventured west into the Trojan area, south into Mesopotamia, and over to Phoenicia when the time was right. The ones in Eastern Europe may have gone south into Macedonia, and further west into Italy to become the Etruscans. Then south to become the Romans, across the sea to become the Carthaginians (From Phoenicia).

Those on the Russian steppes went further west into Scandinavia to become the Proto-Vikings. As they migrated west, the ones in northern Italy went to the Danube and settled there. Then some went further west and settled in France, then into Spain. In Spain in Tartessos, they went across the oceans and settled Albion (England), and Eire (Ireland), some moved north to become the Picts and Scots.

The African Equation could be explained as follows - In Central America, the Toltecs settled, then spread out and sailed across the Atlantic to Africa. They settled Opar, and went on to conquer the entire continent up to the Sudan. In the Sudan region, they went north to Egypt and created an Empire. Some broke off when the Hyksos came and became the Tuaregs and Bedouin. Some of the Toltec could have crossed the pacific ocean to Rappa Nui (Easter Island) and from there the Pacific was theirs to command. They then could have settled in Australia.

Good stuff but where do Atlantis and the UFOs fit in?
 
Gents,

I think it's worth noting that, before he dropped this particular steaming heap, all of Sentai's post had been in the ASB Forum and most concerned themselves with Star Trek and Star Wars. :rolleyes:


Bill
 
Umm...guys, it's pretty obvious that he's actually pushing a theory of his own not an ATL, or if he's not he's doing a very good impression of a crazy theorist. It's the standard farrago of cherrypicked half truths and outright inaccuracies, the same old mish mash of history (Toltecs and Egyptians) and so forth.

The whole Mesoamerican-Egyptian connection is very 19th century... Ignatius Donelley's "Atlantis and the Antedilluvian World", anyone? :p;)

Just as a side note: fossil evidence shows very clearly that humanity evolved in Africa, and that indeed primates originated in Africa as well (the spider monkeys of South America came there via island hopping in the Oligocene, and clearly humanity isn't closely related with them but with the 'Old World' branches of primates). It indeed appears our sentai friend is indeed a great cherrypicker... :eek:
 
The whole Mesoamerican-Egyptian connection is very 19th century... Ignatius Donelley's "Atlantis and the Antedilluvian World", anyone? :p;)

Just as a side note: fossil evidence shows very clearly that humanity evolved in Africa, and that indeed primates originated in Africa as well (the spider monkeys of South America came there via island hopping in the Oligocene, and clearly humanity isn't closely related with them but with the 'Old World' branches of primates). It indeed appears our sentai friend is indeed a great cherrypicker... :eek:

Exactly. Let me demonstrate the process.

Exhibit A: The Temple of Shiva at Vijayanagar

archaeology01.jpg


Exhibit B: Senate House, University of London

SenateHouse_1.jpg


Observation: They're both sort of stepped with a pointy thingamabobby at the top.

Hypothesis: I put it to you, gentlemen that the University of London was founded by the Kings of Vijayanagara!
 
Exactly. Let me demonstrate the process.

Exhibit A: The Temple of Shiva at Vijayanagar

archaeology01.jpg


Exhibit B: Senate House, University of London

SenateHouse_1.jpg


Observation: They're both sort of stepped with a pointy thingamabobby at the top.

Hypothesis: I put it to you, gentlemen that the University of London was founded by the Kings of Vijayanagara!

I believe you are fundamentally misguided.

The true explanation is much more terrible. The true explanation is based on time travel and patent law
 
Flocc, that's a very interesting and provocative extrapolation! Based on your process, I've also found the following shocking revelation:
1) A McDonald's sign
250px-Pine_Bluff_McDonalds_1962_Sign.jpg

2) A natural arch
220px-Delicatearch1.jpg

They are both arches, and I posted the McDonald's sign first, so, logically, the only explanation is that nature stole its design from Mickey D's!
 
Flocc, that's a very interesting and provocative extrapolation! Based on your process, I've also found the following shocking revelation:
1) A McDonald's sign

2) A natural arch

They are both arches, and I posted the McDonald's sign first, so, logically, the only explanation is that nature stole its design from Mickey D's!

Or that that was a Mcdonald's arch from milllions of years ago that minerlaized.:cool:
 
no no NO NO!

We all know that is the Guardian of Forever! which now explains the entire thread as a time paradox loop of some sort




Flocc, that's a very interesting and provocative extrapolation! Based on your process, I've also found the following shocking revelation:
1) A McDonald's sign
250px-Pine_Bluff_McDonalds_1962_Sign.jpg

2) A natural arch
220px-Delicatearch1.jpg

They are both arches, and I posted the McDonald's sign first, so, logically, the only explanation is that nature stole its design from Mickey D's!
 
What if Humans (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) originated in the Americas?

I will give you the dignity of treating this a plausible what if. Even though it seems others aren't going to do that.​



1. Camels, Elephants, Horses, Lions, Tigers, and Bears originated in the Americas.

They didn't originiate here, they did migrate and then evolve into a seperate sub-species.​



2. Oldest known Homo Sapiens Sapiens fossilized remains were found on the islands offshore from California. It is important to note that the fossils contained 40% mineralization, which indicates their extreme antiquity.

No I believe that still belongs to a European fossil. Your point is I believe that man has been on the American cons. for longer than is generally accepted is true. The Clovis culture dates to 40,000 BC plus. So they have been here a helluva long time.​



3. Comperable Homo Sapiens Sapiens (Cro-Magnon Man) fossils contain significantly less mineralization.

I would chalk this up to sea salt. Considering the bodies were found on ISLANDS off the coast.​



4. Current theory holds that America was populated by people from Asia following the herds. Which herds were they following?

The migratory herds of horses, mammoths, etc. One theory holds that there were two breaks in the Ice Age that allowed for migrations through modern Alaska, BC, Cal. into the lower 48, they were IIRC once at 120,000 bc and again at 80,000. With the final thaw coming around 40,000 and the Bering Bridge thawing for good at around 25-30k BC. I am getting my information from a book called 1492. It looks at the latest research on pre-columbian life and sort of updates previous held beliefs and conceptions about pre-columbian america.​



5. Clovis man - in America hunted Ancestral Elephants, or as we call them Mammoths.


YES


6. How come the projectile points from America are not the same as those found in Siberia? You would think they would be identical.

Due to the closing of the ice passage. The cultures were cut off and then refreshed and then cut off again. Due to the size and scope this would lead to evolutions of vastly different cultures.​


7. They came back to the Americas several different times. The Algonquin and Senecas and the Iroquois they are very closely associated with the Celts with their languages and their racial features.


I don't believe there was any contact pre-columbus with exception of the L'ansex Meadows (sp?) settlement in the late 10th century AD. And that had very little impact. If there was pre-columbian contact I doubt it left any impact on the cultures in it's wake particulary in terms of appearance and culture. I am assuming the similarity are more due to environment (dense woodlands) than they are because of breeding and culture exchange. As for the linguistics, assuming they all spoke the same mother tongue (pre-Indo-European, the mother language, the one that was spoken but then as people spread out began to diversify into Indo-European and the other one). It seems reasonable to me at least that the language evolution could evolve into similarly because of the need for similar words. I do seem to remember seeing a chart with a language tree were the NA languages split from the Indo-European mother tongue. Celtic being in that same group would explain the similarity.


8. Evidence suggests that some of the Mayans are closely related to some of the peoples of the Middle East (Pyramids, Crosses, Great White Bearded God).

All human DNA is 98% (or high 90s at least) similar. Considering Mayan and ancient Native American mathematical knowledge it makes sense that they would build similar structures to the Egyptians one of many ancient peoples who have similar knowledge. I strongly doubt that Egyptians showed up in Veracruz and said here's how you build a step pyramid. Considering the layout and design of Chichin Itza among others which are oriented to the sun and to other celestial patterns and are designed as observatories of the skys as much as cities and temples, suggests a higher importance of mathematics and an understanding that possibly rivals our own of the skies and what they mean for the people living on the ground.

In the end while I think some things are plausible. I think you need to do more research in the area, I unfortunately cannot help you as I know very little about pre-contact America (same as most people) and I know very little about pre-history (ie before Ur and the mesopotamian civs, and very little about those times as well).

I would read something written about those times thought, so don't listen to the naysayers, and write what you want to write. please don't start the first sentence with Og said to Ug though :p
 
As for the linguistics, assuming they all spoke the same mother tongue (pre-Indo-European, the mother language, the one that was spoken but then as people spread out began to diversify into Indo-European and the other one). It seems reasonable to me at least that the language evolution could evolve into similarly because of the need for similar words. I do seem to remember seeing a chart with a language tree were the NA languages split from the Indo-European mother tongue. Celtic being in that same group would explain the similarity.

No, Native American languages aren't Indo-European at all. Any similarities are pure coincidence.
 
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