What if Ögedei Khan lived for another 20 years?
- Thread starter Yelnoc
- Start date
Bela escaped and had to be caught
Or there were other reasons. "Retreating in face of Bohemians because they didn't fancy their chances" is possible but seems...well, it doesn't have any stronger reasons to be truer than other reasons.
Bela escaped and had to be caught
Or there were other reasons. "Retreating in face of Bohemians because they didn't fancy their chances" is possible but seems...well, it doesn't have any stronger reasons to be truer than other reasons.
But the force that would have faced the Bohemians could have - if they were feeling they could do so - in a position to do so without hindering chasing Bela.
I'm not saying I'm certain, but I think it is worth bringing up rather than just dismissing as "no stronger reasons than other reasons".
I wouldn't want to face fifty thousand men with ten thousand (if memory serves on the numbers) even as a Mongol.
True. But the fact that they ended up with such number disparity mostly tells me they weren't planning on further operations immediately, otherwise they'd have concentrated more.
In any case, the Western Campaign is not really typical of them in general, that's why we keep having conversations about it (that and Eurocentrism).
re: Elfwine: A tumen that was already weakened by losses in earlier battles, too, it would seem.
Well, that kind of indicates that the invasion of Hungary and such was a means to the end of Russia-and-the-steppe, IMO.
But yeah, the Western campaign comes off as a fluke.
IMO, there are two things that get in the way of a Mongol conquest:
Rain.
"Why are we bothering?"
Even if Europe is as valuable as the Rus princedoms (just for discussion's sake), that's not worth eighteen years campaigning.
There's no reason the Mongols will invest the effort they would have in somewhere more valuable, accordingly.
It's not that, it's just that they came with what was essentially a scouting force, but conducted full-scale operations using it, then abruptly said goodbye and left. It's not like they never saw forests and castles before. It's just that it really seems like a bit of an afterthought...
...except they did bring their finest general and lots of logistical assets, but not enough troops to finish things off. Why?
Securing the flanks of their Russian conquests, maybe? Anyway, not typical.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Not to mention that the Mongols were curbstomped by the Mamluks at Ain Jalut.
I'd suggest much of the invasion of Europe (the Northern prongs) was as a reconnaissance-in-force but Hungary seems to have been pursued in earnest (given all the energy invested in pursuing Bela). Seems to me (based solely on conjecture) that Hungary was going to be the next long-term base of operations for continuing an invasion either West into Bohemia and Italy or South into the Balkans and perhaps the Byzantine successor states. Ultimately thwarted by the death of Ögedei
Though the question ought to be asked - why didn't the Mongols return after that was sorted out?
Different leader, different goals/objectives. Although i wonder why as well, since it was within their grasp.
A good question. They never did in force, of course. But they raided widely for decades afterwards into Hungary, Bohemia, Poland, Serbia. Even almost within sight of Constantinople. But the best Mongol generals never came back apparently and Mongol interest in the West seemed to turn to consolidating the Russian lands and confronting the Mamelukes.
That one's not that hard. Batu was preparing to fight his relatives, Berke actually fought his relatives. There were a few more probing expeditions after that but they didn't accomplish anything much. They never had the support of the entire empire afterwards.
I guess they really did give up on Hungary as a permanent conquest.
It's really not hard for me to imagine that the shifting politics and infighting among the Mongols are responsible, to answer your question. In the wake of Ögedei's death, the interest in continuing efforts in Europe was an emphasis of one faction. By the time that faction won, or rather, when the Golden Horde was more consolidated and autonomous, its leader (Batu Khan) in the midst of preparations to continue the invasion of Europe, died at the age of 48. Betcha alcohol was a factor...
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
If Batu lived for 10-20 years, it could potentially delay the first cultural contact between the Golden Horde and the Islamic world, but at the same time the fate of Sartaq would be left hanging. What is Batu Khan's religious stance? That could have been the deciding factor in which the Golden Horde would have taken if they were to choose their religion.
Another question: was there a chance for Jochi to survive a bit longer than Genghis? I'm just wondering what could have happened if Jochi went rouge and decided to conquer parts of Eurasia without his father's approval.
Another question: was there a chance for Jochi to survive a bit longer than Genghis? I'm just wondering what could have happened if Jochi went rouge and decided to conquer parts of Eurasia without his father's approval.
Western Europe could have undergone the Golden Horde experience. Mongol hegemony in Europe could have blunted OTL European development of the political cultures and possibly aspects of technology OTL attributed to Europe similar in the way the Mongols are in part blamed for in the evolution of Mother Russia.
Marshal B: Batu was a Mongol traditionalist. If the christian Sartaq had lived to rule for a while, that would have been interesting indeed.
I understand the effect the Mongols had on Russia, but could that happen to Europe as well, well the Western and Central part?