MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Although trained shock troops would do infinitely better. On the other hand, could Jochi also try to live just as long as Ogedei if he had a chance?
What if Ögedei Khan lived for another 20 years?
- Thread starter Yelnoc
- Start date
scholar
Banned
Yes. You forget that the Khanate existed to 'conquer the world', and subjugate everyone. Someone sends a pleasant letter to the Khagan, the response is surrender or die. Even if you're in the Italian Peinsula and their armies are still fighting in Mesopotamia.
Each army was told to expand as far as they could, conquer as much as they could, and reap as many spoils as they could. Each army was almost completely autonomous. Apart from information, and a few notable cases of serious reinforcements, most of the main hordes were fully functioning independent conquering machines. There's no "since Ogedei is focusing here what purpose would he have to conquer elsewhere", its Ogedei is focusing here, someone else is focusing there, Batu is focusing in the middle east, etc. etc.
Logistics don't matter in regards to how far away a Mongol Army is from Mongolia, as long as they had riches to plunder and fodder for their horses anywhere, and everywhere, was a target. The Mongols were not a state in the traditional sense and their government makes Prussia look like the height of statehood and bureaucracy. The only reasons why the conquests stopped was because the leaders of these hordes were recalled to select a new Khagan. They wouldn't have stopped on their own until someone forced them to.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Mongol invasion of Europe would depend on how long could Ogedei live past 1241, although if he continues to live by 1261, which parts of Europe would already become a part of the Mongol Empire?
What parts are the Mongols going to try to conquer?
Even if the idea is "conquer everything', that doesn't mean Batu won't get tired, sick, have trouble elsewhere, or for some other reason call "enough" and settle down (so to speak) with what he has.
Also, Subotai is "due" to die in 1248 (at seventy-two), which is going to mean something.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
There's Boroldai, another Mongol general who could replace Subudei as commander.
But is he as good? It's not so much a shortage of men who can be made generals but the quality.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
In that case, maybe Batu should have just settled for destroying European armies that would challenge the Mongols long enough for them to recognize that parts of Europe would remain part of the Mongol Empire, especially the Rus' lands.
I think Batu did that OTL. Maybe even more than was necessary OTL.
It's not as if Frederick was planning to attack him, to pick the nearest Christian ruler in a position to help Bela.
I think Subodai would live long enough to see the Atlantic on his feet;since the plan of conquest was drafted by Subodai and Ogodai's adviser with the full approval of Ogodai and his order that Subodai, as field
commander,had absolute control of operations,death of Subotai would give field command to Batu,a very intelligent and able general who would follow Subodai's plan(Mongol discipline was proverbial) to the letter regarding operation Europe and he would probably be the first to land in England.Him or anyone else appointed.
It was,in terms of military innovation and dominance,the period of the dominance of missile cavalries(until the cannon and the battle of Kazan )
They would conquer Europe,period;as to what parts of Europe the Mongols would originally annex and what parts would be vassals,is pure speculation.Two thinks are certain:the parts which fought the Mongols would be subjected to destruction and slavery for a time like Kiev
lan Carpin who passed 3-4 years after the war in Kiev writes:"Out of a big city what wa saw were only about two hundred huts and the populationlives in conditions of heavy slavery".Those rulers who submitted would escape that and pay tribute only and their external policy would be subject to Mongol approval.
Europe however will escape all the destructive wars and probably prosper until the only man to look the Mongols in the eye will come to a position of power in 100 years:Bertrand du Guesclin....
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I think Poland and Bohemia would be a Mongol Vassals as well seeing that they could not win against them..I think the Mongols might help Bohemia gain power in the HRE as well.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
If the Mongols could focus on conquering all of North Africa, then they'd have a better chance of reaching the Atlantic without having to face European forces.
But worse terrain (much worse terrain). Rain aside.
Not more rugged, but much worse for horse-borne armies. If we can't say for sure that the Mongols would be able to handle feeding their horses in Europe, North Africa doesn't even anything to ruin to turn into pasture - or enough water.
And given Subotai's age, and how long his plans indicated he thought it would take - I don't think he's going to survive to see the Atlantic. Then agian, if we can assume alcoholic (or at least overly heavy drinker) Ogedei can reach 75, Subotai living to his eighties isn't inconceivable.
But it shouldn't be taken for granted. Or that the Mongols would be invincible superwarriors - the forces that beat up Henry declined to fight another army that was coming belatedly to the scene (by the King of Bohemia I believe), which suggests feeling so would not be profitable.
I wouldn't lay good odds on any given European army, certainly, but the Mongols are going to face more than just one army and then surrender.
I think Subotai would meet more formidable opposition on the way to N. Africa and through compared to what the Europeans can put up at the time.
scholar
Banned
No army will choose to fight unendingly, especially after a major battle. Rather commanders will allow the soldiers to drink and plunder their fill for a night at least before forcing another engagement. Especially against a fresh corps of troops.
Yeah, but most armies are willing to face more than one battle per campaign, if it comes up.
It's not as if they were facing the Bohemians the next day - although I don't have the dates at my fingertips.
So that the Mongols decided that fighting it wasn't worth it suggests that they felt it wouldn't end well.
Why? They might have just not had any operational plans for Bohemia, same way they had none for Novgorod or Pskov.