What I'd Mussolini had sided with the allies against hitler?

The Allies would win the war even faster. At least, they should. Italy can't be worse than useless, despite what everyone thinks.

What about the details? When would Italy enter the war? Would they attack Tyrol?

And what strategy would the Germans use? Would the generals try to get rid of Hitler, since the war is unwinnable?
 
The Allies would win the war even faster. At least, they should. Italy can't be worse than useless, despite what everyone thinks.

What about the details? When would Italy enter the war? Would they attack Tyrol?

And what strategy would the Germans use? Would the generals try to get rid of Hitler, since the war is unwinnable?
Pod. Mussolini never invades france, possibly because he believes the us is about to enter the war, or maybe the french dont collapse so fast.

He spends 18 months kicking himself for not getting a share of the spoils, but hitler says, you didnt fight, you dont get anything. Then the us enters the war, and he decides staying on the sidelines is a good idea.

Then stalingrad and midway happen, and the tide turns in favour of the allies.

Benny starts quiet, under the table negotiations with the allies. Switches sides, and dragoon replaces husky as the major allied offensive against the axis. Neither the brits nor the us are blooded yet, so its a slow slog north. Britain also insists on taking all the greek islands back, but is talked out of the peloponnese for now.


Italy remaining neutral means no north africa campaign, which means britain holds crete, and does a far better job in malaya. Keeps burma.

Oops, switch the last two paragraphs.

Logistics mean the invasion effort is slower than otl, but the earlier start helps. Meanwhile, the nazis are fighting an invasion rather than building the atlantic wall, so the wallies land in northern france, too.
 
Italy Not fighting might ensure greek and perhaps bulgarian neutrality,too. So Hardly anything to do in the med for the UK. Vichy colonies might Be persuaded a Lot sooner then. Also butterflies on Barbarossa...

More thoughts: if Italy Jumps ob Board ob the right Moment while the Yugos are in the axis... The Eastern Adria might Become As Italien As silesia is polish now in OTL. Or Even the whole of tyrolia?

Also: if the med is quiet, Operation Jupiter might Become a possibility.
 
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Pod. Mussolini never invades france, possibly because he believes the us is about to enter the war, or maybe the french dont collapse so fast.

He spends 18 months kicking himself for not getting a share of the spoils, but hitler says, you didnt fight, you dont get anything. Then the us enters the war, and he decides staying on the sidelines is a good idea.

Then stalingrad and midway happen, and the tide turns in favour of the allies.

Benny starts quiet, under the table negotiations with the allies. Switches sides, and dragoon replaces husky as the major allied offensive against the axis. Neither the brits nor the us are blooded yet, so its a slow slog north. Britain also insists on taking all the greek islands back, but is talked out of the peloponnese for now.


Italy remaining neutral means no north africa campaign, which means britain holds crete, and does a far better job in malaya. Keeps burma.

Oops, switch the last two paragraphs.

Logistics mean the invasion effort is slower than otl, but the earlier start helps. Meanwhile, the nazis are fighting an invasion rather than building the atlantic wall, so the wallies land in northern france, too.

The scenario would also requre that Italy does NOT invade Greece. Germany might then "only" occupy Yugoslavia - earlier Barbarossa (more troops?)

So Italy Allies leaning even MIGHT be a plus to Germany :D

If you get Italy into the war mid 1943 (?) then some events in Russia will turn out differently.

Germans might start Barbarossa earlier - assume they get even further before the "wet" season sets in. after dry up russia is somewhat weaker (not much) but the 1942 campaign mightt even get further.

if we have a Stalingrad (assume the german push gets as far as it gets OTL in the Stalingrad area (but further in the Caucasus) then there is no Italian contingent separating Romanians and Hungarians. German troops will take Italys part. So the Russian push to cut of Stalingrad might fail...

So not Stalingrad disaster (and the Army that was destroyed in OTLs NA campaign is save too - many forget that this loss was just as big as losing 6th army, but Stalingrad is propaganda)

then wee look at a different early 43 situation. Germany is stronger than OTL... so my earlier post about what happens if Italy joins the allies is true ;)



Butterflies in OTHER theatres...

NO Taranto raid (thats where Japan got the idea for Pearl...)

No Pearl???? - maybe Japan caves in and makes a deal for China...

NO PTO maybe = US not in war, (but aiding Allies)

Butterflies, Butterflies...
 
The Allies wouldve taken North Africa quicker with Italian bases in Libya and Ethiopia

Battles like Monte Cassino wouldnt have happened, or if they had they wouldve been different
 
Italy neutral certainly means no taranto, which as you said likely butterflies the pearl harbor attack. However, its not going to stop the japanese from attacking the us, if only in the philippines, guam and wake.

I didnt mention greece, because i wasnt sure how that would play out, but britain would very likely support greece, which would mean mussolini would have to back out quickly if he wanted not to go to war with britain.
 
Why hasn't Abyssinia been mentioned yet? The war lead to an embargo of coal by the British, which lead to Italy jumping straight into Germany's arms. The Abyssinian war was one big epic failure in the first place, but the diplomatic response from the British was quite foolish as well. Have either 1) No Abyssinian war in the first place and 2) Better response from the British and having Italy join the Allies becomes that much easier.
 
Maybe Benny is neutral at the beginning and declar war to Hitler when he knows that he will lose or even before as he think that can get the major benefit, greater glory etc. etc. (Mussolini was really prone at this impulsive act).
Well no North African and East African front mean that the Japanese will face better troops with better weapon but no morale boosting victory for the Allies or a front where the american can make a 'relative' safe experience in battle and with No Taranto we can see a IJN effort totally devoted to Philippines and South East Asia.
No Yugoslavia and Greece (plus no North Africa) mean that the Nazi can invade when they want and with more troops but there is the possibility that Stalin seeing the German army stay 'idle' take the report of a invasion more seriously, he will probably take the same decison IMO.
If Italy enter the war with the allies, it will be in coincidence or just after the invasion of Europe and he will concentrate his effort in the conquest of Yugoslavia (if still Axis) so in the end we can have a communist block more small, a capitalist/fascist Croatia and a communist Serbia and if things go very well the italian/american/english enter on Czech or Hungary before the Soviet
 
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